Rockwell Owners Adjustable Razors Club (ROARC)

Discussion in 'Safety Razors' started by tuxxdk, Jun 8, 2016.

  1. Str8on2

    Str8on2 Active Member

    +1 I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment there. Like I said, I have no horse in this race. But I feel bad for those who were led to believe that a certain product was going to be delivered with specific design attributes and at a specific price point. And the product that Rockwell has marketed in all their pre-production stage announcements makes me think that they decided to take the easy way out instead of standing pat and making it work. I believe shavers are willing to pay good $$$ for a product they believe will be superior, even if production is delayed or pushed back. Then waiting so late to change direction, just doesn't sound right to me......
     
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  2. blashe

    blashe Well-Known Member

    zamac might be stronger, but this is a tool that is used with water and zamac is a no goo for a $100 razor. As for can he ask for more money, I'm sure he can if it turns out that he has to CNC machine the head parts. Hopefully he don't ask a lot of money AKA trying to make extra pocket stash on the machining, he should charge the backers as much the cost is and not lose money but not gain any either.
     
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  3. PickledNorthern

    PickledNorthern Fabulous, the unicorn

    I'm just not sure how that would go over if he went to over a thousand backers and asked for another $20 to deliver what he committed to.

    Again, at this point, all of this is pure speculation, and it needs to be said over and over. Gareth has proven himself to be a stand up guy so far, and I don't want anything I have been blathering about to be construed as anything but the blatherings of a forum user.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  4. tuxxdk

    tuxxdk International Penguin of Mystery

    If I recall, at first there were zamak internals, but then people pleaded for better materials and Rockwell delivered and the kickstarter went flying. Rest is history. And now we learn that it actually will contain zamak... I'd be sorely pissed if I had backed, only to be let down this way.

    I agree, I haven't followed the model T that closely, because I don't have the funds for one, so I may have missed some important notes along the process.
     
  5. Str8on2

    Str8on2 Active Member

    At the end of the day, it all comes down to 2 variables. Cost vs Profit margin, it's that plain and simple gents. Bean counters will always rule the day. Those Gillette adjustables of the 50's and 60's were engineering marvels and a great value back then. Fast forward to the 21st century, and with the rising costs of tooling, materials and production, we would be probably looking closer to $200 if not more for an equivalent Modern type Gillette adjustable. Hang on to your vintage Gillettes, we just might never see the likes of something similar to it ever........ at a reasonable cost that is.
     
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  6. blashe

    blashe Well-Known Member

    Yes it always comes down to cost vs profit variable, problem is we paid for 100% all brass razor and either we get it even if we have to pay little more for machined parts or Gareth will have to start refunding us, and that's the bottom line.

    Some people wont mind the zamak parts and they will rather have it that way instead of paying more, but at least 50% of the backers will get ticked off with Gareth if he don't give us the option to upgrade the head.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  7. John Ruschmeyer

    John Ruschmeyer Well-Known Member

    Speaking of which... I really wonder why we don't see any modern clones of the classic Gillette Adjustable razors. Back in the day, the Soviets made what are supposedly credible clones of the Slim and SA and now we have the Chinese making a Futur clone for under $20. So, why hasn't one of these economic powerhouses put out a modern clone of, say, the Slim? I'll skip the whole issue of making it out of brass. Even a decently made Zamak Slim would probably sell like hotcakes if you could get the price down low enough.

    (Personally, I'd rather have an all-Zamak razor to one which is part Zamak and part brass. It's the dissimilar metals which get you into the real trouble.)
     
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  8. Str8on2

    Str8on2 Active Member

    You just might have something there. Clones are popping up quite a bit, and an all zamak adjustable razor just might create some noise. Perhaps even have a "premium" labeled razor for those that wouldn't mind paying the higher cost of said razor. But since your point was at a lower cost for the masses, I see no harm in it.....
     
  9. PickledNorthern

    PickledNorthern Fabulous, the unicorn

    Blashe is exactly right. You can't pre-sell one thing and then deliver something else.
     
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  10. DesertTime

    DesertTime Well-Known Member

    I think things might get a little tough for Rockwell. They cannot produce a razor many people want for the price-point they laid out in their kickstarter. They can deliver a razor with materials many are not willing to pay for at that price point.

    Folks have talked about them raising the price to provide a product with the requested materials. Another approach would to lower the price for the product they can deliver by providing more extras, like a free stand or something. That might satisfy some folks who believe $99 is too much for a razor using Zamak.

    I still think they were not as forthcoming as they could have been. Their narrative seems to have some inconsistencies to me. But even with that, I think they will produce a quality product whichever materials they use.
     
  11. sky pilot 83

    sky pilot 83 Member

    Well guys just gotta point out a couple things.

    1. The reason gillette adjustables were so cheap was because Gillette stamped the pieces from brass and probably owned the machines outright for stamping and making each piece, secondly they mass produced in exceptionally high volumes. Due to that it kept prices low.

    2 the tensile strength of zamak may be better but brass has corrosion resistance far superior to zamak. When zamak razors like edwin jagger or merkur have threads or posts that snap off the cap (read reviews on this phenomena) it has to be something other than a tensile strength problem but either way I'm not familiar with this happening with brass. All brass, all steel, or an steel and brass razor would've been fine. But with zamak's track record it was a bad move.

    They heard complaints about the zamak/zinc internals before and switched it to brass. Good call! The result was a huge boost in backers. Now that they're funded basically 6X over they're changing their minds on a different part and going to zamak which held ppl back from backing them before. They could've went with straight up all aluminum to keep the price down and still have a durable enough product for customer needs and desires. Or even aluminum externals and brass internals.

    This is gonna hurt them if they don't fix it. I'll recommend the 6S and 6C till I'm blue in the face. But I'll boycott the model T till they do it right. Raise that price 15-25 bucks to do it right. We'll pay it. I know Gareth reads this thread, or i'd like to think he does.

    Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk
     
  12. JoeB

    JoeB Well-Known Member

    [​IMG]

    I'm in fellas !! My Rockwell 6c. I actually prefer it over the 6s. It's not As heavy and to me feels more balanced.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  13. PickledNorthern

    PickledNorthern Fabulous, the unicorn

    That may be well and good going forward, but it isn't that simple for the people who already paid for theirs. And at 4000+ razors to eat $15 per on, that could easily kill a little project. Or a little company.
     
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  14. blashe

    blashe Well-Known Member

    1. Freebies such as stand or something else does not make things better, I could care less about a free stand or free brush....

    2. 15-20 bucks will not kill a project or company.... those that don't pay the extra will get the zamac head, its simple as that.

    3. I see some people are siding with Gareth, either they are not part of the project or they are buddies. Sweet talking us into accepting zamac wont cut it, something tells me Gareth knows the effect this will have and that's why he is looking into machined parts options.

    4. Gareth mentioned that he might have to go with SS for the head parts, heck as mine as well do the whole razor in SS considering he wanted the internals also in SS.
     
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  15. Str8on2

    Str8on2 Active Member

    Right indeed. But, if you read up on Gillettes history, you will know that they manufactured and sold the Gillette adjustables at a loss to regain market share and sell more blades. They knew it was the beginning of the end.
    Regarding your thoughts on stamping vs die casting it could possibly be true that the Gillette Corporation probably owned the hydraulic stamping equipment to produce their razors by stamping out sheet metal brass and whatever metals needed to complete production.
    Now, think as a manufacturer today. Stamping vs Die Casting, no comparison in terms of efficiency, scrap/wastage, and most importantly cost. Die Casting for a manufacturer and in this case subcontracting the work to a 2nd or 3rd party is a no brainer. We know what we the consumer wants, a high quality produced product whether it be stamped, machined (CNC) or cast at a reasonable cost.
    Here is where in lies the conundrum. Backers and supporters were told what they would be receiving for their early pre-order deposit. On paper a high quality, brass and steel manufactured tool for a (in theory) a reasonable cost. Preproduction runs and processes and a few moths later, adjustments have to be made in metals and or production tooling set ups because of inconsistencies. Gareth and RockWell still have to produce a quality product (at least in their eyes) to honor the commitment made by those who believed in their idea and took a step of faith monetarily to make that thought a reality. Now, they did not make a guarantee or promise that it would be made and delivered as precisely as they described, but decided to make the decision to change production protocol just a month before expected deliveries were to be made. For me, that is a no no. Announcements were made back in early 2016 and perhaps it was an oversight that more R&D was needed before telling consumers of a expected delivery date. Complete R&D, do a couple of preproduction ghost runs, iron out the kinks and what have you. They already have a couple of winners in their stable with the 6s and 6c. They can produce fine quality product. Why jump the gun? Wasn't necessary. And I don't think they would ask backers to fork out another few bucks. Fine line they are walking if they do.....
     
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  16. PickledNorthern

    PickledNorthern Fabulous, the unicorn

    $15-20 x 4000 units puts one hell of a damper on any bottom line for a project of this scope. $20 is at least 20% depending on what level you purchased at. If there is that much room to move on margins for these razors, then I had better start designing one.

    As far as getting the Zamak head if you don't pony up more, that is simply no way to run a business, and and imagine if that happened to you with any other product you buy: "Uhm Mr. Blashe, I know we signed a deal to sell you this widget for $100, but we didn't have all of our projections right, so will you give us twenty more dollars than what we agreed? What, no? Okay then, I guess we'll just have to sell you a widget made from lesser materials, and you'll just have to be satisfied with it." Seriously? I expect a VERY few people would stand for it. As it was, since I was just told flat out that I wouldn't be getting what I paid for, and I really don't want the razor anyway, I just took a refund.
     
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  17. PickledNorthern

    PickledNorthern Fabulous, the unicorn

    Well said. I don't think the delay is much of a part in what has people upset. That has been sort of a par for the course with these razor rollouts, and most people who have bought into one before, or have been involved with pre-buys almost expect it.

    Being told they were buying one made out of one material, cashing the check and then announcing that it will be something else? If you ask me, the first thing that needs to happen is you make the announcement, offer anyone unsatisfied a refund to opt out, and then knock a few dollars off the price for everyone who sticks with it. Or something along those lines. You can't charge me for a roast beef sandwich and give me bologna without offering me the difference in the cost of the lunchmeat. Or just take the sandwich back to the kitchen.
     
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  18. Kypros Christodoulides

    Kypros Christodoulides Well-Known Member

     
  19. Kypros Christodoulides

    Kypros Christodoulides Well-Known Member

    How can one determine if they have the original version or the V2? I have the Rockwell 6s I bought used and I don't know which version it is. Also if I may ask you more experienced with it, what are the differences between the two?
     
  20. nvpliers

    nvpliers New Member

    Hi Kypros,

    I believe you can tell by examining the base plate. The baseplate on the left is a baseplate I purchased separately from a vendor, and I THINK it's V1. The plate on the right is definitely a V2 plate. This style of plate is what I use. I don't bother with the plate on the left. If anyone has info that this is incorrect, please chime in.

    Rockwell V1 vs V2.jpg
     

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