Woah...Shoulda stopped sooner

Discussion in 'Straight Razors' started by JohnDB, Mar 19, 2017.

  1. Crowne & Crane

    Crowne & Crane Well-Known Member

    They are referring to lapping film. You would probably want like 1,3,5,15 micron sheets. Depending on the brand they may have precut glass backing plates available.
     
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  2. JohnDB

    JohnDB Well-Known Member

    Cool...
    What I discovered is that I actually own some Arkansas stones. The soft Arkansas and the white hard. The white is equivalent to 8000 grit. The soft is roughly 4,000-5000 grit.
    I needed to recondition them to use for razors (and have).
    I've got a great edge going now. I've adjusted a couple of things and will likely adjust things some more as time progresses.
    I'm going to need either .3 micron lapping film or a 12,000 grit stone (surgical black Arkansas stone or other substitute) to take the edge the rest of the way home.
    Considering how long the Arkansas stones last...And that carbon steel seems to like them so much I'm thinking of picking up a black Arkansas stone. I have 1 micron diamond spray on my wool felt strop...But getting that BBS in long strokes is my goal. I was close when my stones weren't flat. I also only put one piece of tape on the spine this time as well. (Although I may go to putting two on one side... Hone wear is uneven on the spine and it shows on the blade when honing. This may have been the reason why the edge came to me damaged to begin with)

    This razor is stubborn, troublesome, cantankerous and full of surprises. We are headed to be best of friends. (Birds of a feather...)
    I'm going to try it again on Sunday morning. Trying it last night on my wrist gave me great hope for Sunday morning. That hair got erased off my wrist...No pull, no stubble, and a half spot. But the razor looked like it grew a bunch of hair.

    I'm thinking that I'm going to need the black Arkansas stone to get it perfect.

    But Saturday night or Sunday morning will tell the whole story.
     
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  3. DaltonGang

    DaltonGang Ol' Itchy Whiskers

    Just a word of advice, before youtake a blade to a Arkie Surgical Black, the razor needs to already be shave ready. A 12k stone should do.
     
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  4. Zykris

    Zykris Well-Known Member

    All this talk of Black Surgical Arkie's adding more keeness to a shave ready blade is perking my interest. I know I'm still rather new to touching up and honing in general on a coti. But...the question is...would it be a worthwhile learning experience and beneficial to my edge developments?
     
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  5. JohnDB

    JohnDB Well-Known Member

    Being able to put an edge on your razor is as much an art as is shaving with a straight razor is.

    Being able to get an edge that is sharper than any machine made edge is awesome. Every knife and razor is a bit different than another. Getting the most out of it is a satisfying feeling. So is making a piece of history come alive again. 100-1000 years ago 18 year old kids to adult men used to do this. Today it's a different group.

    And as far as your question...
    From my understanding it's another step forward in an edge polishing that carbon steel seems to handle well. You don't have to go that far to shave. But apparently it makes a great edge.
     
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  6. Zykris

    Zykris Well-Known Member

    I'm still learning my coticule and bbw with all the little tricks I've read about. Using lather seems to coax a bit more toward my liking but the keenness is still a little out of reach. I might have to look into getting a black surgical arkie. I haven't been interested in synthetics at all. That Faultless is being severely stubborn. LOL! Works great on my cheeks and chin but the neck and head hair seems to drag a little more.
     
  7. DaltonGang

    DaltonGang Ol' Itchy Whiskers

    If you can't coax the edge out of the stones you have, then the Surgical Black Arkie will probably be too big of a leap. Try a stone with around 12,000 grit. If it still isn't working, then either do a hard look at your equipment, or look at your technique. Some blades need certain coaxing and blade gymnastics, to bring out an edge.
    I was basically self taught, with the help of videos from @gssixgun , and other "Honemeisters", on YouTube. I acquired many inexpensive blades on eBay, each with their own issues. I had to learn the idiosyncrasies of each razor. I own about 80 or so razors, almost all inexpensive, and needing a full bevel reset, and honing. Some razors only took 20-30 minutes from start to finish, some took an hour or more to figure out. Sometimes only the shave can identify a razor that needs to go back to the starting board. I've only had about 2 razors I just gave up on. One was a modern cheapo razor with bad steel. The other just had poor steel, and was probably ruined by the prior owner, who overheated the blade, with a buffing wheel.
     
  8. JohnDB

    JohnDB Well-Known Member

    OK...
    Shave Report
    I did my usual morning routine of showering.

    It shaved BBS. But it tugged a lot. Didn't glide through the hair like I wanted. There is no razor burn at all.

    This is with
    Soft Arkansas (swirled colors) 40 laps
    Hard Arkansas 40 laps
    1 micron 15 carat diamond spray pasted wool felt strop. 60 laps
    Leather strop 40 laps

    The strop I layed it on my coffee table and used it that way to insure flat even strokes. The other strop underneath it to provide some flexibility and spring.

    All in all...
    I feel like I went as far as I could with what I have. The sharpness is sufficient but the keen is what is lacking. The only way to get more keen is a finer grit stone.
    The stropping provided the sufficient sharpness...But it had to be excessive to create the edge that is usually formed by stones.
    But at least I'm shaved with an edge of my own creation. Which is a start...But not the final end of the matter in my book.
    This vast improvement in my edge over last time was due to some very helpful advice from @DaltonGang . He provided some invaluable assistance in getting my 35+ year old Arkansas stones lapped which made a vast improvement in the edge.

    So...
    Now it's time to find some kind of finer grit stone. Maybe a SBA.... Maybe a Nanawai (or however it's spelled) or something else...Not just sure yet.
     
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  9. Billyfergie

    Billyfergie The Scottish Ninja

    I Use Arkansas Stones..I Know 80 Laps on an Arkansas Finisher wouldn't Look Spit Never Mind 80 Laps On an Arkie Progression..I Mean that's Fantasy Stuff..:)

    Billy..:chores016:
     
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  10. Spyder

    Spyder Well-Known Member

    I don't count laps but I spent at least 20-30 minutes on the Arkie. It took forever to see any swarf at all.
     
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  11. JohnDB

    JohnDB Well-Known Member

    My lap count is approximate. I went till the abrasion from the previous stone was completely removed and only abrasion from the current method of honing showed.
    When you get past a certain point you won't be able to see swarf. (Leather strops change colors only after years of use but obviously do something for the edge)
    Which is why these "finishing" stones are used. They take the metal at the final microscopic edge to a fine, smooth point that will react favorably to the leather strop. No burs or chips at the microscopic edge that cause razor burn or dullness so quickly.
     
  12. Drygulch

    Drygulch Snowballs

    I am a lap counter. I typically start with 200 laps on an arkie, and add more as needed. When you look at the abrasion of the edge, arkies have a much shallower scratch pattern. They also polish as they cut. @JohnDB, I think you could squeak out some more keenness directly from the stone, before going to the strops. Are you using oil, water, or Smith's Honing Compound on the stone?
     
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  13. JohnDB

    JohnDB Well-Known Member

    I believe that you are right...I need more keenness instead of pasted stropping so much.

    I've been using mineral oil on my stones. It doesn't gum up or create varnish over the years. (It did change the stone's colors)
    I know that there is honing oil out there but after that initial bottle ran out over 35 years ago I haven't ever thought to actually buy any. Mineral oil isn't toxic...Might give you the runs if you consume too much (it is a laxative) so I always have used it over the years on my knives.
     
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  14. Drygulch

    Drygulch Snowballs

    I like the Smiths' because it isn't oil. All my sharpening stuff lives in the same boxes, and there isn't hardly any mess with this stuff, and it can be cleaned up with water. It works just as well as any oils I have used.
     
  15. JohnDB

    JohnDB Well-Known Member

    Well I tried to get more from my current stones.
    Didn't work.
    The shave was only marginally better. But this time I quit and picked up my no name razor and finished. It's still sharper than my Germania Cutlery blade.

    Well I've got a black Arkansas stone on the way. Maybe with it I can get this edge to where I will be satisfied.
     
  16. DaltonGang

    DaltonGang Ol' Itchy Whiskers


    Refresh my memory, what is your new honing setup going to be now??
     
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  17. JohnDB

    JohnDB Well-Known Member

    Just the two arkies...The soft and the hard. (Pocket size)
    I tried to get a bit more out of honing on the hard Arkansas stone...But it really needs a finishing stone of some kind to take the edge farther.

    That's what I'm hoping for out of the bench sized black Arkansas on its way to me now.

    Again there wasn't any razor burn...And it shaved better than last time. But it's just not sharp enough yet. I went really soft on the hard Arkansas stone too. Just back and forth with finger weight pressure a bunch of times.

    Then I stropped it just a few strokes on pasted felt and for about 15 minutes on fast bridle leather. It just isn't a smooth enough shave yet.

    I woulda thought that it was sharp enough. But obviously it isn't yet. Maybe I'm missing something. I've come far...Just not far enough yet.

    But to me, this is the best part. The hunt for the solutions. Sure it's annoying and frustrating. But that's what makes success all the more sweet.
    I probably should order the silicone carbide just for good measure. $10 for 6 grits is good insurance if/when I need it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2017
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  18. DaltonGang

    DaltonGang Ol' Itchy Whiskers

    Just an observation, from my use of the SB Arkie: The razor needs to be shave ready before taking it to the SB Arkie, or the Translucent Arkie. If you can get it to work, that would be great, but it would probably be very time consuming, if it worked at all.
    A good intermediary stone should make it work. 8k then 12k, possibly. I enjoy the Welsh Slate Stones(8k 12k 15k) I use, because they are inexpensive, and work. Others use different stones. Is all a matter of preference, and how much you are willing to spend.
     
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  19. JohnDB

    JohnDB Well-Known Member

    One of the things I seen was @gssixgun videos on honing blades was that he used an edge leading stroke on the stones.

    Where I've always done this for every other knife I've never used this on my razor. Always used an edge trailing stroke.

    Granted, he was using waterstones and I'm using oilstones...But I was wondering if I really should be using that same stroke considering how slow the arkies cut.

    Again... Dunno but I think it is worth investigating.
     
  20. DaltonGang

    DaltonGang Ol' Itchy Whiskers

    The edge leading stroke is what I always use, except when I'm just grinding metal, trying to get to a new bevel. On the 1k it's circular strokes until I'm close to the bevel I want, then its x strokes, with the edge leading. The 3k I still do some circular strokes, then x strokes, with the edge leading. From 8 k on, it's all edge leading, with a variety of strokes, toe leading, heel leading, x stroke, and straight edge forward(??).
     
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