I don't really think i will ever become so good as to not touch the skin, because... i also don't care that much about becoming a blade expert. I just want to be able to shave without cutting myself. But, i understand what you mean. Anyway, i will do a shave #3, just out of curiocity to see how far i can go with one blade.
- I will research "bullfrogging", thanks!
- My hair grows pretty much vertically in one direction. I 've seen some drawings showing "growth patterns", but, i think my hair is pretty much straightforward... I don't do ATG. I gave up ever since i was 18, since the multiblades would irritate me immediately. And i don't intend to start ATG now... From a dermatological point of view, ATG is only doing bad things to your skin. One of the reasons why some people have ingrown hair, is because they shave ATG. I 've never had any. I 've also randomly talked about it once with a dermatologist and he confirmed to me, that AGT is just bad, you are trying to scrape your skin off. The outer skin, had 5 layers. The top layer is the stratum corneum, made by metabolically inactive cells, that eventually loose cohesion with the skin and fall off. The surface of the skin, is uneven too. The hair follicles themselves, go much deeper. When you shave ATG, you tend to go against the natural tendency of the hair follicle's direction and also you increase the scraping of the stratum corneum. This isn't as good as it seems, because even the stratum corneum has a purpose. It's the layer that acts as insulating for the skin, to protect from external noxious substances and from water to escape. The "irritation", in reality is a mild, superficial inflammation. It's an insult to the skin. Repeated insults, are treated by the organism with defense mechanisms. Much like sun causes the skin to react with tanning. Tanning is a defense mechanism and it's bad. Repeated irritation, will eventually make the skin tougher. My brother and I, both have the same type of skin (soft and oily). My brother always shaved ATG. I never did. My brother's face now looks worse than mine and when his beard is grown, it looks very "wild". When i pass the same days without shaving, my beard shows more "integrated to the face", because it still tends to follow the downward trend of the follicles. Going ATG, is like trying to comb your hair against their natural growth. Shaving ATG isn't a natural thing. It's a manmade concept, to which generally, the skin disagrees with, but people just tend to overlook what their skin says and just drop aftershave and call it good. The outer skin, is constanty renewed, by maturation of cells in the deepest layer (basal cells). These cells, take 28 days to mature and reach the stratum corneum. So, practically, your skin takes time to rebuild naturally. If you insult it daily, it will have to find quicker ways to respond to the insult: thickening.

It's a bit like tanning. Tanning, is your skin saying "help, i am suffering". But the cosmetics business, has turned it into a fashion and a cash milking operation. The damage of UV to the skin, is permanent. UV even alters the DNA of the cells, making "thymine dimers". These may or may not be successfully repaired, but it just goes to show, why tanning is bad.

Another example, is martial art performers that resort to a technique called "iron fist". They start punching daily hard things, with the purpose to toughen their skin and bones. It works, because again, the skin will react to the chronic insult. Much like, a construction worker will have tougher skin than someone who works in an office...

Interestingly enough, DE and straight shaving will cause _far less_ ingrowns than you'd see with a cartridge, as many black men have discovered. (I have NO idea about black women. Only talked to black men with the tight curly face and head hair) One of my customers has an employee that I provided a set of sample/test blades, plus a razor and some soap. I asked him a week or so later, and he said he'd already had better shaves, and fewer ingrown hairs, and that was just learning.

It goes to show that many times, efficiency goes to the wayside in the quest for profit. (Gillette and others abandoning DE razors)

That DE causes less ingrown, is normal. Because you have ONE blade. If you talk with a dermatologist, he won't be enthusiastic at all with the 5 blade cartridges, because you have 5 blades passing at once from the same point, while the 1st blade has taken away pretty much all the lather. For a dermatologist, a "close shave" is a bad thing and 5 blades at once, may give "close shave" and look good in Gilette's commercial, but it's "too deep" and it's more irritating that passing 1 blade with lather. Myself, i never had ingrown hairs. Because i abbandoned the idea of shaving ATG, after about a week, when i was 18. My skin clearly was irritating and i thought "if my skin says so, i will stop". And it was a good decision.

This is what Gilette doesn't want to you to know:

This is why i go WTG, XTG, WTG. The final pass always WTG, to remind to my skin to "go with the flow". "The flow is downwards".

I found bullfrogging in a mantic99's video about neck shaving! Haha! That was funny!

ATG does not cause ingrown hair with proper techniques. Carts cut the hair below skin level, DE (or any single edge) cannot do this. The number one cause of irritation with DE is high blade angle. I shave ATG daily, as do many others, and ingrown hairs are not an issue.

I don't really know the subtle differences on how DE cuts vs cartridges. I know that generally, shaving ATG is easier to cause it than not and that there is genetic predisposition, because it affects predominantly black men. It is entirely possible that some people, especially caucasias, simply can't have ingrown hair, no matter if they use cartridges or DE. But i am not willing to learn if i am amongst them or not. Here's another one, saying the same things:

http://www.pimaderm.com/f/Pseudofolliculitis_Shaving_Methods.pdf

Shaving ATG, generally, isn't good for the skin. Ask your dermatologist you mostly trust. Some react better to it, but not everyone is blessed.

I understand what you're sharing. But I am telling you that in reality, it's not common for ingrown to develop with DE. There's are pages upon pages of ATG shaves here that didn't cause problems. As you mention, those of African descent with curly hair are more prone, and DE is what is recommended to them to address the ingrown issue.

It's not a surprise that DE is better for them, for the reasons i posted in post #43. Why would you want 5 blades to scrape you and with less lather than one...

The short explanation for them to get ingrown hairs is that when the hair is pulled out and sliced off, they now have a sharp edge (keratin is a hard protein, same as your fingernails) that's just at or below the surface of the skin. As it grows, the curl drives that point right back into the skin - either right below the surface, or as soon as it comes out. DE's tend to cut flush with the surface, and I _think_ at a slightly better angle. Electrics just gnaw the end of the hair Lather doesn't really enter into it.

Thank you. "Cut flush" means, it cuts cleanly? I don't know that expression. My understanding of the ingrown hair is this (by pure coincidence, i am a doctor, albeit not a dermatologist). So i pulled out this from my old dermatology book:



Upper right part, skin (all layers, the hair follicle runs much deeper than the epidermis-outer skin). Lower part. Skin on the microscope. The horizontal external "fibres" are cheratine, produced by the cheratinocytes, the cells in the outer layer of the epidermis. These are cheratine strands on their way of peeling off naturally, loosely adhesed. There is another thinner layer of cheratine that is well adhesed on the epidermis, the part that is a thin, deeper purple in colour. Beyond that, it's the cells that produce it. Note how the skin isn't flat, but has great hight variations. So, when you take your wonderful Gilette 5 blade and pass it against the grain, there are good chances, due to the increased resistance and to the fact that the 1st blade removes much lather, that the subsequent blades will cut "too deeply" and scrape some areas deeper than others, to the lack of lubrification. Imagine it as trying to slide down a mountain with ski gear vs with nailed boots. In areas where the the "mountains" and "valleys" of the skin are significantly different, there will be areas where the hair will be cut deeply. Having curly hair, will facilitate the hair to "lose growth direction" and turn inwards, while cheratinocytes will start rebuilding cheratine, trapping the hair under. The hair has only one way to go, back towards to the folicule deep in the derma. It will eventually break the follicule wall and enter the derma. The only possible result, is inflammation. Which is why possible treatment, involves: retinoids (to stop formation of cheratine, to give a chance to hair to find a possible escape upwards), cortisone (to stop inflammation).

With brief talks i had with a dermatologist, the multiblades give "closer shave" than DEs. Or better "too close". Because they scrape too much and cut too deep.

P.S: The epidermis, is blood-vessel free. So, everytime you "cut" yourself, it means, you have penetrated all 5 epidermis layers (the deeper purple part) and you have entered the lighter purple part, on the bottom of the lower picture. Just to see, how easily shaving "attacks" your skin.

To cut something flush means even with the surface. I'm not certain of the origin of the phrase.

I'm firmly on the side that five blades means one will be at the right height, and at least one other will slice you up. The way they describe the cutting action of all the various multi-blade razors is as a 'lift and cut'. What that means is that the first blade catches the hair, and PULLS. That means that the hair is further out of the follicle pore than is normal. At the same time, it's being shoved (carried along by the first cutting edge). At the point where the first cutting edge releases the hair, the next edge is already engaged, and it's now at a sharper angle than the first edge. So, the first cut may be a clean cut, but the second cut is 'whittling' the hair, which causes an extremely sharp point to form at the end of the hair. (I should probably sketch this and upload, rather than trying to describe with words. That will have to wait for later). Now, you have a hair that retracts below the surface of the epidermis, and has a fine point on the end. As keratin is harder than the dermis, it will penetrate.

With a DE, the first cut is at the same level as the dermis. Without putting excessive pressure on the razor, the blade 'rides' the dermis, and hits the hair, bending it and pulling slightly. This gives a slight point _outside_ the dermis. The ATG (or even XTG) simply does the same action, at the same level as the first cut. What you end up with, after multiple passes, is instead of a single sloping cut /|, you'll get a multi cut that ends up more like this /\, if lop sided. The pointed bits are level with (flush) the epidermis, so as the hair grows, it is unlikely to impact the side wall of the pore to penetrate, and even if curly, it's not as tightly sharp on one edge as the cartridge hair. (I wonder if my microscope camera can capture this)

While I enjoy an esoteric conversation as much as the next man, aren't we overthinking this just a, if you'll pardon the expression, hair?

Cutting us off, huh? You'd razor we switched to another topic? Quit splitting hairs?

Actually, I think its helpful. It's forcing me to write down what I already conceptualised.

Are you in Italy?

Where are my manners - welcome to The Shave Den!

Welcome to The Shave Den, Shave Fu! Glad you are here.

I really don't know much about razor action nor the exact meccanism. My dermatology book doesn't go in to "blade action detail", i am afraid. And, i have been on 2 blade cartridges ever since i was an adolescent, because i was oblivious to anything Gilette would say to convince me to go to more than 2. What i doubt about your description is this: 1) How can a blade "catch" a hair? I mean, it's a blade, it cuts... 2) How can a hair be pulled further out of its follicle? The hair is anchored by 2 points. First, exactly the follicle. Second, is a muscle, called "arrector pilii", the thing that you see on the upper picture, forming an arch, connecting the folicle to the surface of the skin. This is the muscle that makes you get "goosebumps". Under normal conditions, the muscle is relaxed, so your hair is in normal position. When you are for example cold, the muscle contracts, so the folicule in that case, is brought more rightwards (in the upper picture) and you hair "stands up". But, you can't pull the hair. Try pulling your hair with your fingers, you can't. You are only pulling your skin up, exactly because there are 2 anchors. And actually if you pull your skin, it hurts. You can rip the hair out, but that's not what a blade is supposed to do. And frankly, a blade, is supposed to be blind and flat. The skin isn't flat. So, i don't believe that Gilette has made blades that don't randomly scrape. The trick is, you can scrape all you want in the epidermis and you won't bleed, because there is no blood vessel there. And you can call it "close shave", even if you destroy half the cheratinocytes in there.

Anywhere, you might be right, this is my conjecture only. I am afraid blade action goes beyond what i was taught.

You are right and i usually avoid bringing the "job" or private details in a forum, because i usually end up with rain of PMs, that make me leave the forum, ultimately. But, i also have the professional deformation, where at some point my brain protests and urges me to switch "scientific mode on". Frankly, i think probably the entire forum is about overthinking hair a bit. A friend of mine, just because i started explain to him that there are 3 different brushes and that each has different characteristics, started laughing at me, looked me with a strange look and said "Geee, i think you are developing a sort of new vice, there!". And wait until my girlfriend hears about registering to a forum.

Thank you! Don't worry, one can't possibly catch every post out there.

Thank you.

New order from the "United Barbers".
- 100 x Bluebird Platinum (i just couldn't resist, they were on offer for 6 EUR and reviews say that they are made by Derby, but they are a bit sharper than normal Derbys, but still smooth)
- 100 x Shark Super Stainless (i read they are sharp, but not too much and smooth enough. Something middle of the road between Derby and the sharper ones).
- 10 x Persona Blue (i think that i won't really like the supersharp blades and i read these are amongst the sharpest. Hence, just 10, to try).
- 200 x Derby Extra Blue (again, at 12 EUR, it's hard to resist. I know for sure that i can't cut myself easily with Derby and that i can shave very quickly. So these will likely be my "shave in a hurry blades").
- 2 x Omega Synthetic 10005 (wooden handle) brushes . I read excellent comments about it in a local forum, it's smaller than the Omega 48 that i have and i read it behaves very well. So 1 to use, 1 for spare. I will probably rotate between this and the Omega 48.
- 1 Derby Shaving Cream Lemon (i like lemon).
- 1 Proraso Red (Sandalwood, which i like) and 1 Proraso White (some say it's the best of the series) in tubs.
- 1 Omega 274-CR brush stand (i read you are supposed to let the brush with the loft facing down, i didn't know that).
- 100 x Dorco ST-301 (i read they are middle of the road, so i will probably like them, plus, since i ordered blades from Russia, Turkey, USA, i might as well try far East).
- 1 Arko stick soap (i don't think i will like solid soaps, but i thought it's a good place to start, plus, i like lemon).
And all this with 0 shipping costs and supposedly 24h delivery, if i am to believe my dear "Barbers United".

This should keep me going for a while... Considering that hopefully the Astras should be coming next week, together with the EJ DE89, i think that there isn't much to go wrong. I am more worried about the Astras being too sharp than anything else. But, i thought about it like this: I have the Weishi, which has very little blade exposure and the DE89 coming, which is supposed to be a bit more aggressive. Worst case scenario, the Astras should work with the Weishi without butchering me and the duller blades should work with the DE89 better than the Weishi. Ok, worst case scenario, the Astras butcher me even with the Weishi and i just toss them away. Given the price, no big loss...