Convex Hones

Discussion in 'Straight Razors' started by PLANofMAN, Feb 4, 2023.

  1. DrStrange

    DrStrange Well-Known Member

    Sometimes when I see extraordinarily thin bone scales,
    I wonder if it was done by someone who primarily worked in ivory.
     
  2. JPO

    JPO Active Member

    The only thing I do to my convex stones is to use a concave dressing stone, and just use the stone surface evenly.
    I have used my stones for years without needing to do anything else.

    My flat stones need allot more work to stay flat.
     
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  3. PLANofMAN

    PLANofMAN Eccentric Razor Collector Staff Member

    Moderator Article Team
    Of course. Back when these theories were first put into practice, it was done by rubbing a harder stone on a softer stone, or a coarser stone on a finer one until the desired shape was reached. Nowadays, an angle grinder can speed that process up considerably.

    Is this the best way to do it? No. That's why we have plates. Is it doable? Absolutely. Just mark the desired level of convexity on the sides of the stone, and remove material.

    A lot of people seem to go with an Arkansas progression of convex hones, and that works well, because they generally tend to be low maintenance rocks
     
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  4. DaltonGang

    DaltonGang Ol' Itchy Whiskers

    So, how far have you made it, with convexing your stones?
     
  5. Kyle89

    Kyle89 New Member

    Yeah I might just end up eyeballing it. Any kind of lapping and Arks is a bit of a turnoff for me though haha, but my hard black will certainly be the flat finisher. Not so much a fan of a full Ark progression regardless. I'll probably end up retiring my norton 8k and convexing that, but still need to decide what comes before the norton. Thinking ~3k, but we'll see. I do have a hindo that I've messed with some on razors, but need to dabble with it more on whether or not the results would be worthwhile. I'll have to play with it more in its current state.
     
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  6. PLANofMAN

    PLANofMAN Eccentric Razor Collector Staff Member

    Moderator Article Team
    Getting the steel backing plates concaved this week, and the grit is showing up Friday.

    7m and 8m stones are confirmed. The stone for the 5m is still being tested. The 1.7m and 2m stones are still up in the air.

    Otherwise, I'm still filling gaps in the stone progression, and coming to the reluctant conclusion that my "all natural" stone progression is probably not going to work. It's doable with Arkansas stones, going from a Washita up to a trans black. It's less doable with other stones. Once you get below a 5-6k equivalent stone, you are usually dealing with water stones, and most of those are too soft to make good convex hones, unless you really don't care about burning through rocks.

    Microscope and 20x and 30x loupes are also in the mail.
    Screenshot_2023-03-02-14-33-56-88_260528048de7f2f358f0056f785be619.jpg
     
  7. PLANofMAN

    PLANofMAN Eccentric Razor Collector Staff Member

    Moderator Article Team
    I have the Thuringian convexed to the 8m, and two Belgian Blue Whetstones convexed to 5m and 7m respectively. Working on a hard Washita on the 1.7m. It's not a fast process.

    I'm thinking about taking the 7m stone and dropping it down to the 2m, to return the stone closer to it's original shape, which was closer to a 1m convex shape, though I don't know if that was a honing choice or simply a comfortable shape to hold. The sides are all beveled inwards, so if anything, it would give me more usable surface area, and somewhat more flexibility in use.

    My brother-in-law brought over his Ralf Aust and Boker for an edge refresh, and I thought I would get to play with bumpy rocks. Unfortunately, all the Aust needed was a good stropping. The Boker did need an edge refresh, but that was all done on the coticules. Mostly by my brother-in-law, once he watched me for a while, and I explained what the various techniques and processes were and did.

    We did determine that his issues were caused by too heavy of a hand on the strop, and an improper shaving angle. Waiting to hear back on how he finds the edges on the razors now.
     
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  8. Steve56

    Steve56 Hone Hoarder

    Sounds like progress Ryan.
     
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  9. DaltonGang

    DaltonGang Ol' Itchy Whiskers

    Very good start.
    Let me.know how it goes, when you start the Arkansas Surgical Black, and the Arkansas Translucent stones.
     
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  10. PLANofMAN

    PLANofMAN Eccentric Razor Collector Staff Member

    Moderator Article Team
    I'd have to buy some first. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for me to do so. It would be more "if I see a good deal" type of a stone purchase, rather than a "gotta collect them all," sort of thing.

    The resulting shave would have to be exceptionally good for me to devote another couple hundred dollars and literally weeks of my life to shaping those.
     
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  11. Steve56

    Steve56 Hone Hoarder

    Yeah, the return on the investment of money and time with Arks is what keeps me off of them as a major player in razor hones. And that’s with flat ones.
     
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  12. PLANofMAN

    PLANofMAN Eccentric Razor Collector Staff Member

    Moderator Article Team
    Some sort of Arkansas stones incoming, presumably. This one is 6" long. Edit: wrong! Hindostan!
    Screenshot_2023-03-11-19-43-01-55_260528048de7f2f358f0056f785be619.jpg
    This next one is Washita...ish, and 5" long.
    Screenshot_2023-03-11-19-42-32-21_260528048de7f2f358f0056f785be619.jpg ...and from the same seller, a for sure ark. Edit: also Washita.
    Screenshot_2023-03-11-19-44-28-86_260528048de7f2f358f0056f785be619.jpg
    Though it's not a razor stone, imo.
    Screenshot_2023-03-11-19-44-46-32_260528048de7f2f358f0056f785be619.jpg
    These are usually 3x1" or 4x1", but I decided to bid on it too, since I was angling for combined shipping, and that was the reason I got this one too...
    Screenshot_2023-03-11-19-43-34-72_260528048de7f2f358f0056f785be619.jpg
    Some sort of 8" slate...thing. Could be anything from an unlabeled Escher to a Belgian Blue Whetstone, or a floor tile.
    Edit: ended up being a quite nice green/blue or blue Thuringian. Lighter than my dark blue Thuringian.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2023
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  13. PLANofMAN

    PLANofMAN Eccentric Razor Collector Staff Member

    Moderator Article Team
    Screenshot_2023-03-20-06-42-16-49_be80aec1db9a2b53c9d399db0c602181.jpg Screenshot_2023-03-20-06-41-55-98_be80aec1db9a2b53c9d399db0c602181.jpg
    The two trans and the #51 surgical black are headed my way. All are 2x8" stones, and are particularly egregious seconds from Dan's, but at a price I couldn't refuse.

    Pain, misery, and suffering are my future now, as I lap these things.

    Edit: the surgical black is at least lapped flat.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
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  14. Steve56

    Steve56 Hone Hoarder

    As long as the stone is sound, I wouldn’t want to put a lot of hours/several days labor into a problematic stone. But this is an experiment so go for it!
     
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  15. PLANofMAN

    PLANofMAN Eccentric Razor Collector Staff Member

    Moderator Article Team
    I figure I can get at least one convex stone out of the trans. The black and the other trans I plan to leave flat. The black, mostly because of it's thinness.
    Screenshot_2023-03-20-08-08-53-69_be80aec1db9a2b53c9d399db0c602181.jpg
    I want to reiterate, these are the tail end of a lot of hundreds of Dan's whetstone seconds. I got them for a phenomenal deal. Convincing the wife that the deal was a good one took considerably more effort.

    Edit: On the other hand, I've seen multiple people post that they would rather have a Dan's second stone than another company's firsts.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
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  16. Steve56

    Steve56 Hone Hoarder

    Sounds like a plan. It isn’t that thin for an Ark, they don’t wear very fast. It will last longer than you will!
     
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  17. DaltonGang

    DaltonGang Ol' Itchy Whiskers

    The thinness only becomes a problem, if you make it real bumpy. Are those Surgical Black Arkies. If so, it would be a shame to round them over.
     
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  18. Steve56

    Steve56 Hone Hoarder

    You could glue them to a base if the thinness becomes an issue.
     
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  19. PLANofMAN

    PLANofMAN Eccentric Razor Collector Staff Member

    Moderator Article Team
    Yes, surgical black, my bad. I got it in my head that they were trans black for some reason. Went back and edited the posts.

    Probably should have picked up two of those too, but money is super tight right now.

    One of the trans is getting the bumpy treatment, on the 8m plate. I hadn't planned on doing the black, mostly because of the thinness, but it's doable.

    People see the 1.7m or the 2m radius stones and think they know what convex hones look like. The truth is, at the larger radii, it can be hard to see the difference between flat and convex.
    _storage_emulated_0_Pictures_comica_comica1679419015525.jpg
    On an 8" stone, you are probably going to lose maybe a milimeter or two of depth on the very ends of the stone. I have to double check the 8m everytime, to make sure the correct side is up. It's not a shape that screams "I'm convex!" at an initial glance.
    I'd rather not, unless one side is not usable. That way I can still use both surfaces. It's not much of an experiment unless you can directly compare edges honed on flat against edges honed convex from the same stone, ideally from identical razors.

    In hindsight, I should have gone with a fully synthetic progression, but it is what it is at this point, and I took to heart @JPO's comment about the depth of the scratch pattern having a larger impact on the bevel's flexibility than people realize, and that natural stones are less aggressive in this regard.

    I will be making boxes for all my stones, sooner rather than later.

    Edit: I'm going on the assumption that once I have the trans both flattened, and one of them convexed, I'm going to be unwilling to do it a third time.

    Heh. The strongest argument FOR convex hones is that some idiots (I include myself in this select group) are willing to spend 40-80 or more hours shaping Arkansas stones. Anyone that committed is not going to have their mind changed by someone else saying "you're wrong, because reasons."

    I definitely lean towards the "this is a monumental waste of my time" side of things, and I regret indulging my curiosity. On the other hand, it's been fun and I now have a very in-depth sharpening setup. I also have a new appreciation for the variety of differences between the 'same' type of stones... and that includes the potential differences between the two faces of a stone, which can be quite different.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
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  20. JPO

    JPO Active Member

    Nice to see you are making good progress.
    I actually think natural stones are better suited for this type of work. Even one of my slow coticule is quite efficient.
    The difficult part of using these stones is to know when to jump from one stone to the next.
    If you hone in hand you will feel when the bevel is taking the shape of the stone. You will feel a slight increase in resistance. At this point you need to move to the next step.
    If you are using a three stone setup, you need to spend just a little time on the second step. It is important not to overdo it, because you need to be able to keep as much of the bevel shape as possible from the first step.
     

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