I will sooner or later have to get my current straight razor honed, and I have a NOS Wapi on the way. I'm feeling a little adventurous and would like to try honing, but I'll probably send them out to a honemeister first, or take Jim up on his honing offer (thanks Jim!) if he's not too busy, so that I can get a good baseline. Anyway... There's a Polish store on eBay that's having an offer on BBWs and Coticules. They also stock the Chinese 12K hone. I'm thinking that I'll start out by refreshing the edges (as opposed to resetting bevels), so my reading points towards a finishing stone. My question is: both Coticules and the Chinese 12Ks are mentioned as finishing stones. Would getting both be too much of an overlap, and in that case, which would be a better buy? For reference, the Coticule is going for about €46 shipped, while the Chinese 12K is about €30 shipped. No slurry stone is included for either. Thanks!
I like the coticules a lot and I don't like the Chinese 12K at all. Both hones need to be lapped flat before use. If you don't have some kind of diamond hone, like a DMT 8C, you can use wet or dry abrasive paper. The coticule laps very easily while the Chinese 12K is a monster (I've heard that some are softer). It took me hours and hours of backbreaking work and it's still not perfectly flat (the corners are a little lower than the center) but the stone is so big that 99% of it is usable and I haven't got the energy to remove more stone from practically the whole hone just for the corners. The Chinese 12K is also a lot slower hone. This means that while you can refresh an edge on the coticule with, say, 20 laps, you might have to do 50 to 100 on a Chinese 12K. That's my 2 cents worth. Edit: I also like the coticule because I can hold it in my hand, which is my honing style. The Chinese 12K is so big that you have to use on a table.
Well I have a coticule, which I have used in the past, but not a Chinese 12K. I think if you know what you are doing with a coticule they can be a decent finisher, but the general impression I get is that they are not as fine as other finishers. The thing about the coticule, though, is that the garnets, which are the abrasive elements in the stone, are shaped in such a way that there are no acute angles - this can make it feel (on the razor) like a much finer hone than it actually is if you were to just compare grit ratings with other stones. I cannot say much about the Chinese, except that the guys I know who own one like it and use it (with the exception of Chimensch ). In terms of overlap, I am unsure. There is a coticule expert on SRP who experiments with slurry thicknesses etc who can use it to do anything from setting the bevel to finishing apparently. So it is a versatile stone (but has a learning curve), potentially. But my view on the matter is this: if you can afford to get both, do it. In my experience, the more stones you try the more you learn about both the stones and what you prefer to use. Of course, I have HAD (recovering - one razor at a time.. ) so... James.
If I can throw my tuppence in, I'd be careful about buying coticules on the Bay unless you are very familiar with the seller. There are reputable sellers of coticules both in the states and in Europe that we can refer you to, if you want. I don't know how their prices compare to what you're looking at, though. Now, since I don't own either, I can't comment on which is preferable.
I find the coti an excellent finishing stone, though i am also a bif fan of the Naniwa 10k. Chines 12K? if you have the time, patience and skill you will probably never get a better finish - but it does take a LOT of work! My vote? Naniwa 10k for most, coti (oddly enough) for stainless and BBW for Wapis.
I use the coti, and though I am just starting off, I prefer the edge refined by a coti and then finished on a 12k shapton pro. But everyone has their own preferences... So far, my best edge has been: 1k diamond plate, refined on BBW then Coti, finished on 12k shapton. But like I said, I'm just starting out...
Thanks gents! Great information here. I did what Jim suggested—bought both. Down this slippery slope I go... Now, just to get a few almost shave-ready razors...
I see yo have already made the purchase but for the benefit of all I will add my two scents. I have both the coticule and Chinese 12k and use both. For carbon steel blades I polish on an 8k Norton and then do 100 laps on the coticule, water only. This gives a nice smooth shave and breaks any wire edge that may develop before on the 8k, how ever minute it may be. When honing for my wife this is where I stop. For me I add 100 laps on the Chinese 12k which brings the edge to a super sharp state, yet very smooth. If I set the bevel correctly this will result in the HHT popping hairs almost every time. Just a note, I lap on the coticule and Chinese 12k at speeds close to my stropping speed. 100 laps takes me about a minute and a half. I'm not bragging just noting that 100 laps to me is not an issue. If you laps on a hone are not as fast the 100 laps may be a concern if yo u hone a lot of razors. For a touch up hone either hone would do just fine with water only. Once you add slurry the strokes increase to achieve a perfect edge as the slurry rounds off the edge a bit.
I'll have to differ my opinion just a little. Since the coticule is a natural stone it can depend on which one you get whether or not it's a finisher. I have a yellow-green coticule that is a very nice finisher,I go from it directly to the strop.On the other hand,I have a yellow coticule that I have to finish on a Thuringen before stropping.All depends on what you get,which makes it (IMHO) alot more enjoyable than using a manufactured stone.
Yeah, that's true, there are different ones out there but I have seen many that were not suitable to use as a finisher and not one that was suitable and because of this (and the experience of many other guys I know) I am wary recommending it as a finisher. If you get one that works - great, but chanses of you getting such a stone are not that great.
Here is my definition of stones-vs-uses The problem here is when you toss in naturals as there are no true grit sizes with them, and when you add in the mystical properties that some people attribute to them it gets very confusing... Below 1000 grit = Restoration stuff 1k-3k = Bevel setters 3k -6k Sharpeners 6k- 10k Polishers above 10k = Finishers Some naturals can move from one category to another some can't, using slurry can drastically change the uses of most stones....I did an experiment recently just to prove a point, that any stone in the 8k range like a Coticule can be used for every aspect from bevel setting to polishing (I used a Norton 8k)... There are differences not only in the Coticule, but even in the Ch12k's it all depends on how far you want to take the hobby of honing......
As has already been discussed, a Coticule can be great but only if you find the right one. I've use some terrible ones and some decent ones. I haven't found any that have impressed me. Due to their fickle nature, I avoid Coticules altogether.
Coticules vary, that is why it is important to get one from someone reputable. Look at the Ardennes website, and that is not including the vintage ones of different colors and hardness. IIRC, the ones you referred to on ebay are not the "select" grade Howard sells. Some folks who bought his Thuringiens also complained of inclusions. That being said, I once had a razor honed by Josh E. and have experienced how fine a finisher a coticule can be in the right hands. Nothing exotic, just plain ones from Howard. The point is, all the hones mentioned have their own following because they all can do the job. You just need to take the time to master them. That is why it is so much easier to get good results from pastes.
Try having a look at this http://www.toolshop.de/product_info.php?products_id=2057&XTCsid=68b0ad79419dbb431f47d47c1fd506ba with a slurry stone it's about 12k I think from the one I got from him or http://www.toolshop.de/product_info.php?products_id=4152&XTCsid=68b0ad79419dbb431f47d47c1fd506ba for a Belgian
That is the best way to go! If you end up not liking one or the other or both, they hold a pretty good resale value and you can get something else instead
