withdrawn

Honestly I have been doing this for quite a few years and have never ever heard of any SR honer using paper, this is the first time, and specifically for the reason that it is destructive to the edge, and it is just way too easy after a proper 1k bevel set..
Quite a few things you mentioned sounded odd, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt, like your mention of Chips and Burrs that sounds more like Knife and Tool honing rather then SR honing but hey if it works for you,,, go for it

I would never even think of using paper on any SR edge over 1k and even that would be a complete waste of paper

ps: the AHT is usually done just above skin level not on dry skin, the closest thing to cutting paper would be the TNT

pps: Just to make sure I was right, I was just taking a pic of a razor that I finished a restore on, just the edge off the buffers, hasn't even been on a hone yet.. It made short work of 20 weight Printer paper much like a very sharp kitchen knife or hunting knife, just sssssssss right on through... Fails the TNT and Fails the AHT so a dull SR edge... Now if you tell me I need heavier paper I am done with this convo

 

Suppose this could go on a while, but any more will have to be tomorrow. What % of the edge does the HHT test? Calibration, yes a little of that goes into paper cutting as well, though I prefer to call it experience. I have to believe that you have never tried, other than to make a little confetti. At least I have tried and mastered your ways. I just find them cumbersome. Even the Puma factory calls it a burr, so call it what you will. Yes, I can hone a knife, sense 9, and a few tools as well. Of course at 9, could only shave the hairs on the arm. A couple of years before, I watched a friend of my dad's walk down to the creek, pick up several stones and throw them back, finally walk back to the porch with one, and commence to putting a hair popping edge on his pocket knife. I may be wrong but find the idea that cutting paper damages the edge as preposterous, and I don't believe my microscope will bear you out. Anyone one who cannot tell a difference cutting paper between 1K and 4K, or even 8K and 12K, can't be trying, even a newbie. Strange, I never saw a barber cutting single hairs, or the hair on his arm, I must confess here, I never saw one cut paper either. The nuances of cutting paper are consistent throughout the process, without learning a different set for each test. I thought the idea here, was to help newbies find methods that can be learned and used easily. Of course if they really believe the edge will be damaged by note pad paper, they probably need to keep trying to learn your way. Guess I may be frowned upon here for a while so if there are any interested out there, you are welcome to PM me.

PSS. I use 5x8 notepad paper. Not nearly as heavy as 20lb printer paper. I can get 'ssssss' off 600 grit DMT. Proves nothing. Prof is 'sssssss' getting much quieter and smoother as the process progresses, much like different test at different points, except to the experienced, 20-30 laps on any stone should make a discernable difference in the cut sound, and smoothness.

PSSS How nice would it be to have a years worth of identical hairs, all at the same humidity level, and be able to use them through the entire process?

 

No no, not "My tests" although I would love to be credited with these tests for a SR,,, I must confess that they come from 100's of years of Barbering Manuals and Hone Instructions, and not once, ever in any of those, have I ever read "Take a sheet of paper and cut it"

The Hair Test was so well known in barbering circles that many SR's actually say "Hair Tested" on the old advertising literature, and are rather proud of it, Same with the TNT it is found in countless references,,,none of this is my opinion it is based on literally 300 years of written barbering manuals.

All you have to do is go search for all this, it is easily found, start with any DD razor insert, or perhaps a Escher instruction sheet, it is all out there for your reading pleasure..

 

Here is something I have learned over the years not only with razors but with Martial Arts

There is a great saying with boxing and stepping into the ring

"Everyone has a plan until they get hit"

When it comes to SR ideas these Meets are "The Ring" http://theshaveden.com/forums/threads/greater-pacific-northwest-meet-sat-sept-13th-in-seattle.39394/
Sitting down across the table with not only experienced people but newbs teaches you very quickly if your idea has merit or not..

When you see how others use your technique and implement it, you are often shown the weaknesses that you never knew existed, I would highly suggest you sit down at one of the meets and yes they are held in many places across the world and discuss your paper cutting idea with other Straight Razor Aficionados and see what happens..

Good luck

Another notepad cutting test right off the buffers on a Heljie passes easily yet fails all other SR sharpness tests...

 

Glen nailed it

 

I came to The Shave Den expecting to find a little more open minded people. You Glenn, seem to have the same close minded attitude and condescending manner that is so prevalent and destructive on larger forums. I did not try to poke holes in the methods you chose to use, or anyone else for that matter, but you attacked my method of cutting paper with hogwash about damaging the bevel. This seems to be the standard method on other forums, for getting different minded people to shut up and go away. Make fun of anything, with comments that cannot be proven, but may be believed. I have no doubt that your freshly polished blade will cut paper, as will my pocket knife in bad need of honing. That is not the point. It is not a test to be used once, and an entirely different test for later on. You yourself, admit in earlier posts that the methods you speak of, do not always work and/or may be difficult at times. My 100X and 500X microscope examinations to not prove out your comment of bevel damage. Yes, I noticed you changed the conversation when I suggested as much, as I have noticed you tend to edit your posts once others have responded. Dull the edge, of course, just like cutting anything else. However, that 500X exam does show damage from a single shave, whereas it does not from a single pass cutting paper. The HHT is not only difficult for some to learn, I have seen it explained a dozen different ways, some of which made little sense. Is there any test you use that is certain of finding a single tiny chip that is capable of affecting the shave?

I have no doubt that the methods you use were developed hundreds of years ago. I also have no doubt that office supply stores and cheap, consistent note pads were not available then.

I appreciate your suggestion to attend an SR meet, but think I would rather attend more of a show, where anyone is allowed to set up a table. I set out 4 razors, with stones, from 4 different levels of progression, and allow visitors to see for themselves. Obviously, SR shavers and honers, of your caliber, self appointed “Aficionados”, would not be interested. My grandmother passed still not believing that men had walked on the moon too.

This is your chance. You can respond to this post for you own edification or that of other readers, if you like. I can assure you, I will not be reading it or responding to any of your comments. Not going away, just looking for open minded conversation instead of ridicule and change of conversation in an effort to belittle the thinking and/or actions of others.
Al

 

Al, it is rather simple, it takes exactly the same testing as the TNT to prove the error in slicing paper and that it does dull the edge,

You might want to take a look here from last weekend where we sat down and proved it again at the Seattle Meet


Greater Pacific Northwest meet **Sat. Sept 13th in Seattle**


Look close, see the paper next to the glass right in front of the water well ???? Yeppers we did the tests, it failed miserably... Took us mere minutes to prove it too BUT I tested it again with multiple people because I wanted to give it the best chance possible, I already knew it would fail, tried it years ago.. That is how I test things that people put on these forums over and over and over... I find it rather funny that you're acting like you are the first person to try this, most every knife guy tries it and then realizes it doesn't work well with SR's and moves on... The other paper test that people used was the wet TP push cut test but most found that also to be a waste of time...

ps: They are not my methods, they have been proved to be effective over the last few hundred years of SR shaving and are well known and described in many barbers manuals and SR instruction sheets..


BTW it really makes no difference to me if you slice paper make confetti for all I care but it does dull the edge... So that made me wonder something, Why ??? Why would you tell people to try a test that dulls the edge and potentially damages it, it isn't even a new test it isn't sure isn't popular among SR honers so why Al ???? why are you so stuck on it ???

Honestly I wish it did work I would have hair on my arms again

 

It never fails to amaze me how people come here and immediately jump to offense at Glen's comments... Guys, Glenn is a nice guy with a lot of experience that he generously shares regardless of how many times he has to say the same thing over and over. He's one of our resident experts. If you take offense at what he is saying, it is because you are looking to take offense. He wasn't making fun. There was no ridicule in his posts. He was trying to share his experience with regard to the suggested method being presented, which happened to be a not so good result. If you want to come here and get invovled in "open-minded" conversation, please check that chip on your shoulder at the door. We have no need for flame wars here.

 

All I know is I'm doing my best to 'learn' the subtle differences in the sharpening stages by regularly doing the AHT throughout the honing process. My being able to distinguish the subtle nuances in 'popping hairs' certainly gives me good feedback as to how I'm progressing.
The only real problem so far is I wasn't blessed (cursed?) with the hairiest of arms, so the testing fields are getting over-harvested….

 

AHT that often I am still learning and a long way to go.

 

+1 on that

 

With experience you can learn to apply several test TPT and the HHT it's knowing how to exactly apply these small calibrations correctly, it's no good holding a hair with a tiny section sticking out then with a fare amount of pressure moving it downwards as this is not taking into account the amount pressure also the hair becomes quite rigid and won't really tell you won't you need to know, it's a case of the hair length the lightness of touch during the downward pressure some razors will pop hairs with the lightest of touches when you get it right, and I also like using the TPT but then again my thumb is zeroed in and very accustomed to what a shave ready razor feels like, but ultimately as Glen as already stated the moment of truth will be when you actually shave your face.

 

My viewpoint on it is this...what is paper made from? Essentially it is wood, so take your straight and run it along a 2x4 and then let me know how the edge fairs. Most people know that the worst thing for any sharp edge is paper...take a professional hairdressers scissors and cut paper with them and check out their reaction. But then again, what the heck would I know lol

 

I apologize to those hear that take my remarks as flaming. I can not abide with someone who wants to tell me that the method I use is nonsense, without further evidence, and changes the discussion when I suggest that his comments can be tested.
Also cannot abide with " Honestly I have been doing this for quite a few years and have never ever heard of any SR honer using paper, this is the first time," and in a later post "Look close, see the paper next to the glass right in front of the water well ???? Yeppers we did the tests, it failed miserably... Took us mere minutes to prove it too BUT I tested it again with multiple people because I wanted to give it the best chance possible, I already knew it would fail, tried it years ago.."

So which is it? Never, ever heard of it, or tried it years ago?
"Mere minutes to prove". Oh, you learned the method's that you use in minutes? I think an inexperienced person could easily prove that the 'commonly approved' methods do not work as well.

Yes cutting 2X4's would not be so good on my razor, neither would cutting a piece of rope made from hair. And cutting paper does dull the edge, just as anything else you cut. Just like popping hairs, but then you are still sitting at the hone? As someone else mentioned here, popping hairs can have subtle differences, that is the entire point with the method I use, and suggested. Except the subtle differences will continue from beginning to end. One type of test to learn.

I suggested this as a method that might be a little easier for someone having trouble with the 'commonly approved' methods. If any of you choose to believe that I am destroying these razor, Your choice, and quite possibly your loss.
With all due respect!

 

Oh well all I can do is try, as you said Al we are trying to help people learn this lost art, some listen, others take their own path, regardless of how many warning signs are posted on that path ...

I simply pointed out the signs to you, I can do no more to help you...


On a personal note, you might want to go back and read each post that I wrote, you will find that I have been very clear from the beginning in this thread even concerning your odd ideas...
You might try actually offering some proof of your findings, perhaps some vids, perhaps again to follow the suggestion of attending a meet which would be the best...