Rockwell Razors!?!?!?!?

Discussion in 'Safety Razors' started by Alan H, Mar 24, 2015.

  1. Alan H

    Alan H Member

    Hmm. Very interesting, food for thought!
     
  2. Alan H

    Alan H Member

    I only knew of Rockwell and KickStarter because of Mantic, the Shaveologist himself, who was given a prototype to test and he liked it. I figured, "how could I go wrong".
     
  3. maltedmilk

    maltedmilk Well-Known Member

    Article Team
    Dude! That was one vehement, polemic stream of vitriol. Simma down nah! It'll be alright...

    Nate, I've seen the detail you put into your razor reviews and pics and know your quality standards are quite high. I'll not dispute your assertion that overall quality of KS projects have gone downhill. However, I propose that the number of scam projects is quite small and that most of the funded failures have had good intentions.

    I still have no conclusive evidence, but credit the Rockwell designers with a good design concept. The failure is clearly in the manufacturing execution .

    There is nothing inherent to KS that produces mediocre products, though. If you argue that KS draws a very high percentage of ingenues, I'll concede the point. You automatically get the bonus points from good intentions as paving stones, too. But your argument does not preclude good stuff being launched through Kickstarter.

    @Alan H - How could they have known that their designs had been poorly executed before seeing the contract manufacturer's product? If you say they never should have shipped such poor quality product, I'll back you 100%. However, didn't they contract the shipping to a third party? What if they launched their orders and had everything drop-shipped from their suppliers? Talk about asking for trouble! Well, they got it, didn't they? In spades!

    SO... Why do I care? <sigh> I guess I have two reasons. First, I want innovators to succeed — especially with new wet-shaving technology! Second, I hope to Kickstart a hybrid razor in the near future. I originally hoped it would be a TSD collective effort, but, like Henny Penny, I haven't had anyone join me.

    Having no investment capital, I figure crowd sourcing is a better option than begging friends and relatives. There is no sharing the ownership because the effort is a one-time production run. I originally hoped to KS the whole enchilada, but someone here made some excellent comments that gave me pause. I now see it as a two phase KS. Phase 1 pay for the engineering, 3D model in SolidWorks, and 3D printed prototypes. I do not have a quote from the engineer yet, but three prototypes are about $500. I estimate the modelling to cost between $800 and $1500, but don't really know.

    Personally, I give Phase 1 low odds of kickstarting. I usually tend toward optimism, but can't guess how many people are willing to throw $5 ~ $20 bucks at an idea with the only extrensic reward being some amount of discount on Phase 2 — if it launches. Are there enough razor fans to launch Phase 1 based primarily on the intrensic value of feeling good for contributing to a worthy idea?


    Answering @Mr. Droid 's point, I would expect to deliver a superior product because I have some years experience in manufacturing. I'm not an engineer, so cannot generate the models. However, I have a firm lock on a solid design concept that is really just robbing features from proven razors and combining them. If my contract engineer can measure the examples, stitching them together in SolidWorks is fairly simple.

    I have spent literally millions of dollars of my employer's money buying precision parts from highly capable machine shops. Actually executing my project is as low risk as manufacturing can be. We minimize the risk of failure by sticking with known entities. I can say with complete confidence that my machine shop would never have shipped anything resembling the pictures above!

    SO... do any of you guys have experience in SolidWorks (or other 3D CAD)? Want to donate some hours to help out the cause? smiley_tip_hat2.gif ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2015
  4. Alan H

    Alan H Member

    I'm not sure what you are saying. I also added that they "...should have known...". They could have known by one of those guys going over to check samples from each of those boxes so lovely stacked and wrapped on the shipping pallet as pictured in their photos. Better yet, to save some time and money, Rockwell should have gone over there at the very beginning of, and during, the manufacturing process and, especially, prior to all of them being boxed up and ready to ship. A company cannot cross their fingers and contract their entire quality control department to a third party and not be held [fully] responsible for the results and then try to shift the blame to their shipper! To rely entirely on their manufacturer and shipping partner is naive, at best.
     
  5. SmurfK

    SmurfK Member

    I don't think that i agree with you here. When you start this kind of thing, you must think about all there is, it's your responsibility. Design, manufacturing, marketing. You can't really throw the manufacturing errors on the factory. Maybe they did not had the technology for a quality product. It's not their fault, it's yours, as you are the one who took your business to them.
    Basically, the problem here was that, as a designer, is easy to overlook the tolerances for the equipment that is gonna make your product. They made the design, it looked great theoretically, but, in practice, the factory was not able to be that precise. That might be ok for mugs or i don't know, some other objects. But for razor, a 0.2 mm error will get your blade off.
     
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  6. maltedmilk

    maltedmilk Well-Known Member

    Article Team
    @SmurfK

    I edited my post to replace "manufacturing" with "execution." Mo betta, now?

    SmurfK and @Alan H

    Man, you guys are being harsh an a couple of young men who have been out of college for only a couple of years. I am not excusing their mistakes. I am highlighting their inexperience. If the photos of their faces weren't enough to clue you in, here is something from their web site:


    The founders of Rockwell Razors, Morgan and Gareth, met in 2013 at our university's business plan pitch competition.

    They were still in school two years ago. I rather doubt they have given up their day jobs. I just don't see coming down like a ton of bricks on a couple of young men who made an earnest, entrepreneurial effort. They went to bat and struck out. They may have even lost the big game. I would imagine they feel the loss far more keenly than the $80-ish bucks that a backer laments.

    This wasn't WalMart that ripped you off. It was two until-recently-in-college-kids who should have known better but didn't. They spilled the milk and, by all accounts, are making efforts to clean it up. They can't un-spill the milk no matter how much they should have known or could have prevented it.
    If these guys are mopping as fast as they can, observers' cries of "Faster! Faster!" probably won't change the mopping speed. "Should have ___" and "could have ___" likely have the same effect.

    A couple of months ago I bought a razor from the TSD classifieds. Dude shipped the razor, says the USPS picked it up, but USPS claims they never received goods. Dude didn't feel inclined to refund me even a partial. If I had gone through e-bay, I could have gotten my money back. So how do I feel about Dude? I think he is more culpable than Morgan and Gareth of Rockwell, but realize that my $60 is down the drain. Until this very moment, I've kept this story to myself.


    Tell you what... if you guys are really burning over this whole thing, check out these articles:

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anxiety-files/201409/letting-go-sunk-costs
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...102/how-cut-your-losses-when-it-s-not-working

    I close with this:

    Quarrel not at all. No man resolved to make the most of himself can spare time for personal contention. Still less can he afford to take all the consequences, including the vitiating of his temper and loss of self control. Yield larger things to which you can show no more than equal right; and yield lesser ones, though clearly your own. Better give your path to a dog than be bitten by him in contesting for the right. Even killing the dog would not cure the bite. – Abraham Lincoln

    Best regards,
    Sean
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2015
  7. Alan H

    Alan H Member

    I was lured in by the sparkle of stainless steel and then hooked by the low price. I didn't realize I was signing onto a work in progress where two guys had little or no knowledge of taking a new, finished, usable product to market. This is what they emailed me:

    "I want to thank you for supporting our Kickstarter, but remind you pledging to support a Kickstarter is not like purchasing a finished product, it is pledging a financial contribution to support a start-up, with the return of the opportunity to be a part of an iterative process of design and creation. I am very sorry if you didn't understand this when you signed up for Kickstarter. Kickstarter's policy is to not provide refunds, as highlighted on the terms of use I previously sent you...".

    @maltedmilk, you are right, their young faces and being fresh out of school should have been a warning. I didn't know I was signing up to be part of their research and development process. However, I did think I was signing onto receiving a finished/usable razor. My fault and, as I previously stated, I will lick my wounds and crawl back into my den. We shall see where they are come September.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2015
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  8. SmurfK

    SmurfK Member

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  9. Mr. Droid

    Mr. Droid Well-Known Member

    Yeah. I get mad about stuff. And although I am at a point in my life where I get mad less than ever... I still spend about 25% of my day being disgruntled.
    I did not mean to imply that any projects are scams or that anyone has bad intentions... merely that people seem to be doing way less leg work on average now. Maybe it seems that way because there is so much more on kickstarter than in the beginning. But it just seems that people go from idea, to asking for funding too fast. This results in making unkeepable promises as the inevitable delays, snafus and simple drudgery of getting things done invade the project. This doesn't make anyone a bad person. It might make you an overly optimistic person. I feel that was the problem with this razor. It seems that these guys did some cursory research, and went into things with boundless optimism. And then that optimism bit then in the behind when the ugly truth of the difficulty of manufacturing and delivering a product came to light. With all the problems and replacements, it seems likely that this project with be a break even at best. And judging by opinions out there, it seems dicey if all their damage control will sow enough goodwill for their company to survive. And honestly that sucks. I hate to see any kickstarter project fail or misfire. It makes the supporters leery the next time something catches their fancy. My girlfriend backed a project last year. The project was a product she was really excited about. But, after a full year delay in delivery, and the eventual arrival of an unusable item almost completely different than the promised product, she has told me that it would take something really amazing to lure her back. And all it would take to avoid this... is for people to do the work. A good design concept can't succeed without good research and development. The best idea in the world is not enough on its own. The idea just doesn't matter if it can't be delivered.

    Oops. I was trying not to be long winded and ranty. I failed. Sorry!


     
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  10. maltedmilk

    maltedmilk Well-Known Member

    Article Team
    BINGO!

    Makes me think of a quote I have posted in my cube at work...


    Good tactics can save even the worst strategy. Bad tactics will destroy even the best strategy. — George S. Patton

    ;)
     
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  11. Alan H

    Alan H Member

    Well Said
     
  12. Mr. Droid

    Mr. Droid Well-Known Member

    That good sir, is an excellent quote.
     
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  13. Darkbulb

    Darkbulb Cookie Hoarder

    They are now selling their razor on Etsy here
     
  14. Alan H

    Alan H Member

    It is amazing that Rockwell doesn't have usable razors to send out to their Kick Starter supporters but, somehow they do to sell on Etsy? Have they corrected the bowing bars problem?
     
  15. Jayaruh

    Jayaruh The Cackalacky House Pet

    Supporting Vendor
    I shaved with my fatboy this morning. What a great shave! This month I will be using the fatboy, slim, and Schick M adjustable. I am not tempted in the least to get a rockwell.
     
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  16. Alan H

    Alan H Member

    Have you used any modern razors, such as the Edwin Jagger? If so, how do they compare to the fatboy?
    Thanks!
    Alan
     
  17. Jayaruh

    Jayaruh The Cackalacky House Pet

    Supporting Vendor
    I have the EJ DE89 and it is a fine razor. The EJ is 2.6 oz. and the fatboy is 2.8. They both have a good feel in the hand and are well balanced. The EJ provides a mild shave and so does the fatboy (at the lower numbers). But you can get a closer shave with less effort with the fatboy once you find your number. This morning (razor set to 6) I could have stopped after the first pass. When rinsing my face I had very little feedback, but I went ahead and did the second pass. It was a close comfortable shave, but some might argue a BBS. I don't chase the baby, but today, with the help of my fatboy, I believe he arrived.
    If you check out my den, Jayaruh's Shave Den , you will see that I have mostly vintage razors, and I shave with them all.
    These are my modern razors in alphabetical order:
    Edwin Jagger 89bl (2012) (mild)
    Merkur 15c (2014) (medium)
    Merkur 37C Slant* (2013) (somewhat aggressive)
    Parker 60R (2011) (mild but with head issues)
    RiMei (2013) (very mild)
    Utopia (2014) (good for the handle only)
     
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  18. maltedmilk

    maltedmilk Well-Known Member

    Article Team
    Heavens forfend! :shocked003: My Utopia can hold its own with my EJ. The EJ is the better quality of the two, but the shaves, though distinct, are quite similar. By similar, I mean excellent.

    I am sad to say that I like them both better than my Fatboy. <sigh> I wish I loved my Fatboy more. :sad023:
     
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  19. MarshalArtist

    MarshalArtist Psychiatric Help 5¢

    This thread is sounding more and more Freudian…
     
  20. Darkbulb

    Darkbulb Cookie Hoarder

    I'm the same - I like my Fatboy but can't say I really love it. I prefer the Slim.
     
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