Look, I don’t care if someone wants to drag their razor up a monkey’s butt and call that honing. If it suits them it suits me. However, let’s not as a community say it’s a best practice—or even a reasonable practice. Just because people used to do it back in time doesn’t mean it wasn’t a gimmick back then too. Just sayin’. If it was all that great where are all the vintage convex hones? I’ve seen a scant few shown. The YouTube guy wants to cite that obscure Norton Pike pamphlet that talks about it—but where are the vintage Norton Pike hones? Nowhere to be found? I’m betting there is a reason for that and that it’s not just a coincidence.
Convex honing is an attempt to replicate what was mostly done with Arkansas stone wheels. ...and those all got used up and they don't make them anymore. And the razor manufacturers bought every one they could get their hands on. These are consumable items. Did you even read the thread? Edit: ...and yes, I take that Norton booklet with a very large grain of salt. But there are other sources of historical reference examples. Edit 2: Regarding "...let’s not as a community say it’s a best practice—or even a reasonable practice." There are many paths to get to an edge. This is one of them. I can remember when pyramid honing was the communities' darling, and we all know how that ended. On the trash heap of failed innovations, that caused a lot of unnecessary wear to both stones and razors. Perhaps convex honing will wind up in the same place? I at least try a thing before I judge it, and based on my experience, I have found convex honing useful in certain circumstances.
I don’t doubt that there are a FEW historical references of people doing it. I’m just saying they were whackadoodle back then too.
At the risk of touching the tar baby I think I can summarize this thread (and the topic.) @PLANofMAN put in a lot of work to see what he could learn first hand about convex honing. And, at the end of the day, the conclusion seems to be it can be done and it can produce a shave with a different feel. Not necessarily better, just different. Of course, special stones and a different technique are needed so the value of it is questionable unless you just want to do something different to modify your shave experience - which may be what floats your boat. But it is very unlikely to replace traditional flat stone honing for everyone else. Can we put the topic to bed now?
You are responding to this thread based on your experience, old threads, and Jarrod's YouTube videos. I suggest you ditch your preconceptions and actually go back to page one of this thread and read the whole thing. FYI, I got a ton of flack for this thread from both sides of the honing community, not just from traditional honers.
Thanks for the suggestion. I don’t care to know everything about convex honing because it’s a thing that I would never do. I read a good part of this thread but not all of it. I also saw some of the YouTube convex guy’s videos but not all. I think I have a good enough overview to know that it is not the best honing practice nor even a particularly good one. I don’t doubt that people can get sharp edges and nice shaves but I just don’t get why someone would want to swim upstream.
I never thought you were the one profiting. I watched as you spent quite a bit on your Convex Hones experiment. Well, you could always flatten then out again. Nothing says they have to remain bumpy.
It replicates the slurry honed edge that has taken master honers decades to master. It uses geometry to create the same effect without the decades of "honing" one's craft. It allows a total noob to produce edges roughly comparable to the best produced by a jnat, and in less time. The downside, is that you need to shape your stones and keep them shaped accurately, which can be a real pain. ...and it doesn't work on wedge ground blades. And it offends the delicate sensibilities of some people.
What have pipe forum people got against corn cob pipes and store bought tobacco blends? Are they not elite enough? Sadly elitism is a big part of every hobby I’ve ever been a part of. People get off on trying to make other people covet what they have and then ego tripping on it. LOL! Incidentally what if someone started packing the stem of their pipe and smoking from the bowl? Then what if that person started telling everyone that it was the right way to smoke and the regular way was wrong? Then they found an obscure reference to someone else doing it a hundred years ago and claimed it was evidence that reverse smoking was a lost art they rediscovered? I would tell you that person was a smoke-blower alright.
I think my initial replies were hasty. Micro bevels are still a thing, by the way. I'd even go so far as to say that it's considered standard practice across the hobby. I'm not even sure it's still considered an "advanced" honing technique. Just the regular way to put the final edge on a razor, whether from using a black Arkansas stone or slurry from a jnat, thuringian, or Belgian coticle, or a even a fancy synthetic. What is your experience with convex hones? What, in your opinion, makes them a "gimmick?" Other than the lack of many surviving historical examples, which you've already mentioned. (We'll just ignore all grinding wheels, since, at it's core, a convex hone is just a small section of a very large grinding wheel). You want to discuss honing? Fine. I'm genuinely curious. What makes 'Convex Honing' bad? You've said that the community should actively discourage it. Why? Give me some actual reasons. I can think of a few, but they boil down to difficulty and time, both of which are based on the labor of shaping the stone, and have nothing to do with the actual honing process.
Zippity doo dah It’s another flavor-of-the-week honing fad where somebody starts something then begins attracting a little band of groupies who jump on the bandwagon for a while and talk about how great it is then move onto something else. The biggest thing I have against it is probably the YouTube guy who is not happy with just doing it and owning the fact that it’s quirky and non-standard—but he has to revise history and make it be the way razors were always intended to be honed—and if you are not doing it that way then you are doing it wrong. I also agree with some other commenters on this topic that the guy is mostly doing it to drive up his slumping hone sales. What are the odds that in a couple years the guy will “rediscover” another “lost art” of honing that will require everyone to go out and buy new hones yet again? LOL I hope that sort of explains where I am coming from. I find it irksome I guess and that’s mostly centered around that guy’s attitude.
At least you are self aware of your own bias, and the reasoning behind it. If it makes you feel better, I don't care for his condescending attitude either, but it's hardly surprising, given all the vitriol he's faced over the last decade from 'traditional' honers. His business was doing well before he discovered convex honing. The boycott against him and his business by the community hurt his sales far more than any profits he's made off convex hones, and he readily admits it. He is truly passionate about the craft, and dedicated, which is more than can be said for most hobby shavers. I can attest from personal experience, that there is no activity more miserable and boring than shaping a black or translucent Arkansas stone. There is no financial incentive that would ever get me to do it professionally. Not for love or money. I did it once, out of curiosity, more than for any other reason. I had to know for myself, you understand? It's made me a more humble person, and more willing to view perspectives other than my own. I don't really like Jarrod, but I sympathize with him, and I understand him and his motivations. I can say with absolute certainty that greed is not one of his vices. Hubris perhaps. Narcissism, certainly. Neither are mortal sins, and are necessary if one wants to change the world. Even a small and declining world like straight razor shaving. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that people shouldn't be so quick to judge or reject ideas just because they are "new" or "different."
If you are referring to our former TSD member, than I am compelled to post: he has NEVER said anything of the sort---ever.
New and different is great as long as there is anything to gain from it. The summation of the whole thing was that it is no better. Right? Seems like a big old nothing burger to me.
That’s what I took away from the whole “that’s the way razors were always intended to be honed” convo complete with the vintage Norton Pike pamphlet that he uses as his evidentiary support—when in fact there are no vintage Norton Pike hones that are convexed.
It produces a keener edge than most honers are capable of creating on flat stones. Make of that what you will. There were tons. Arkansas wheels. Every single one was convexed. It's part of, well... being a wheel.
You’re doing some serious mental gymnastics now in an effort to not be wrong. Since you opened that door let me go ahead and step through too. Don’t you suppose that Norton Pike had the wherewithal to make convex bench stones? They made wheels after all—and sythe stones. If razor bevels were intended to be concaved and that was considered the proper way to hone don’t you suppose Norton Pike would have made some convex bench stones? They purpose built those wheels for commercial/industrial high volume use—not for better shaving comfort.
I suppose they could have... But why? You are a modern man, with a modern man's perspective. At the turn of the century, men didn't sharpen their own razors. They took them to their local cutler, who would sharpen them. Presumably on their "commercial/industrial high volume use equipment." In later years, it was the barber who would hone your razor. It was only with the rise of the DE blade, and subsequent fall of the straight razor that home honing ever became a thing. In any case, it's irrelevant. Vintage convex hones (and strops) were made and sold. The quantity does not matter, nor does the maker. The fact of the matter is that convex hones were professionally made and sold. No, it wasn't Norton Pike who made them, but what does that matter? It should be enough for you that they were made and used in the last century, long before most of us were born.
