It is an unusual razor, both in terms of grinding and how it is finished. I have done grinds like that. A royal pain in the ass is what they are. I want to draw your attention to the makers mark. You can see that the actual makers mark is worn badly, but the surface etch is perfect. That can only happen if the etching was done when the makers mark already looked like that. Imo this is a restored razor that was etched after being restored at some point. It's not actually fake. But it's also not wootz. When you heat carbon steel with 0.83% carbon to 727°C, the carbon in the steel will form austenite. When this is quenched it becomes martensite. If the steel contains more carbon, the temperature required to put all the carbon in solution is also higher. Now, say steel contains 0.95% and you keep the same temperature, not all that carbon will form austenite. Some of it will form cementite carbides. If you quench that, you will get martensite with cementite. Martensite will etch dark. cementite will etch white. If we ignore the details, this is similar to wootz, where you get martensite and cementite. The key difference is that if you look at wootz in detail, the carbides have an orientation. The carbides in your razor are nodular and do not have a particular orientation. That picture is what I expect from normal high carbon steel that was etched to highlight the distribution of cementite. EDIT: I have listed the theoretical temperatures and percentages. These represent steady states after long soak. Actual real world temperatures are higher. I've also omitted a good deal of details to keep it simple. Anyone interested in the real nitty gritty shoudl download Verhoeven's paper that is available as a free download: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268324669_Steel_Metallurgy_for_the_Non-Metallurgist
Very educational. This helps with identification of razors looking to be passed off as Wootz Steel razors. Sorry @Steve56 , I was hoping it was real. ..
Yep, that would have been interesting Scott. However, it’s old enough to precede the Bessemer process, so it’s quite likely that it, like many other old razors, were made of ‘acier fondue’, aka cast steel, aka ‘pot’ steel, and wootz was also a pot steel. It would be interesting to etch some of the old acier fondue blades and see what the pattern looks like. Or even traditionally forged tamehagane, also a kind of pot steel though the pot was very large!
@Snailforge, many, if not all of the old French razors were quenched in molten lead. Nowadays, due to (justifiable) health concerns, Thiers Issard is the only company that still does so, and they have a special government permit to do so. What effect would this have on a razor, compared to modern quenching methods?
I don’t think that I’ll need to send it out, I think photography supply stores sell the chemicals. You can see Mastro Livi etch one in one of his videos. If you own a razor that’s pre-1860 or so you very likely do have a cast steel razor.
There is 1 huge upside on quenching in molten lead. It has an enormous thermal mass. If you look at industrial razor quenching, they always quench an entire rack of razor blanks in one go. If you would do that in oil, the middle razors might not be hardened the same as the ones on the outside. And the thermal differences might cause some razors to warp. Also the oil would heat up significantly so you'd be limited in how many razors you can quench per hour. When quenching in molten lead, the effect of the heat of the razors on the temperature on the lead is negligible. Like throwing a water balloon at a wall. It is much more reproducible than anything else, at least when running mass production.
if you etch tamahagane, you will see the folding pattern of the steel. I've used ancient (from the 1500s) and modern tamahagane. It is wonderful steel to work with. It is not better than modern steel, but the processes surrounding it are inspiring. Tamahagane as such is not super special. It is not magical. The real magic of tamahagane is that over half a millenium ago, they already had a process to turn burnt crunchy bits of smelted steel, full of inclusions, into a homogenous bar of steel. Also what I personally consider wonderful is that many years ago, I was able to procure a broken sword. An actual 'broken on the battlefield' sword from the 1500s. I was even able to identify the smith who made the sword, and found a short bio about him. The heat treatment was intact, and so I was able to cut it up, and make 2 razors out of it. And the wonder of it was that I was able to retain the original heat treatment. So the hamon that was visible, and the shaving edge, were created by the original smith 500 years ago. EDIT: I feel like I am derailing the thread here.
The wootz pattern can sometimes be hard to take a good picture of, but here is one right after etching (older pic). You can clearly see how this is different from the other one. You can clearly see the 'flow' of the carbides, kinda like running water. This is why it was also called water steel, or so I was told.
Fascinating story, and I agree with your opinion - they took iron sand, pine charcoal, some clay for a vessel and made pretty darned good steel from it. Not derailing the thread though, tamehgane was a crucible steel of sorts.
I like your answer. Not only explained why French razors tend to be good, but also why Gold Dollar razors are 'buy five to find one good one.'
I was under the impression that Dovo's problem is the claim that their razors are 'shave ready,' when in reality, they are mearly 'sharp.' Here is Dovo's tempering process, in their own words: "...The tempering (hardening and tempering) of the blanks is of importance, which are heated to 810°C or 1040°C depending of the steel type, and is quenched in a special oil afterwards. The temperature limits are often defining, and sometimes also the professional secret of the experienced hardener. The following tempering at approx. 200°C provides the blade with elasticity and durability. Constant controls of the hardness according to Rockwell (HRC) guarantee sharpness and the sustainment of the cutting edge."
Here's the link to the full PDF/brochure: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAMegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw06gukLLe90iqfYuJE-8p5g Should have added that in my post.
I feel like you should really post pictures of those two razors. As a side note, does it weird you out a little bit, knowing that you are shaving with steel that has almost certainly killed people?
Maybe I'll start a dedicated thread to just talk and answer questions. that way there is no topic to derail. Plus I don't follow all topics here and if people post in that particular thread I'll get a notification when I log in. For the steel... interesting question. The steel itself is not good or evil. It is just a means to express intent of the person holding it.
I just posted a thread where I'll continue the discussion in a dedicated topic. Dedicated to my ramblings so by definition it cannot go off-topic
