Just remember, all of you, that the original Kickstarter was to produce a modern TTO that would incorporate zinc internals. That is what everyone who sticks around is still gonna get. Would have had months ago if not for Gareth trying to go the extra mile. Just sayin..... If Gareth is guilty of something, it is raising expectations unrealistically, and then writing checks his hind end couldn't cash. I will cut him a grain of salt over the "spin". Of course he has to stay enthusiastic. If he acted as bummed out as a large portion of the backers, there would be no product. I also understand that a lot of backers got in based on promises and goals of a better product. It didn't pan out. Everyone is free to bow out and take their money. If they lose 7-10 dollars, that is just sort of the risk of playing with Kickstarter. At the end of the day, Gareth will pay off everyone who wants to jump ship, and the rest will get the originally promised razor. Seems to me like a first world problem, and a distraction from life worth the $8.
Yes, you are correct. Ultimately, in the end who is responsible for Rockwell's products from start to finish? Suppliers? Backers? The production facility? It's Rockwell. Period. There are those that want to put a spin on it and sugarcoat it as best they can. And in a sense, I don't blame them. The 6s and the family of razors that have come from it have been good products with great pricing and value. Hell, I own a 6s that I have put up in a pass around on another forum for those that don't have one to try it out until more are produced. Try before they buy so to speak. All I'm saying is that for me, broken promises and deadlines mean something. Regardless of how nice of a person or upstart company you may be, there has to be accountability. Without it there is no structure and chaos ensues. Maybe I'm being perhaps a bit harsh, but that's what I truly believe. Investing money, time and depositing faith in a belief of a product that will come to fruition from an upstart company and not coming through when they made the promises and guarantees. We did not ask them to do it. As you stated correctly, it probably would have been better to state this is what we can do and that is all we can do for the price point. I just don't care for the run around on all facets of this project.
Let's address: 1. The first 2 production runs for the 6s. The VERY first run of the 6s was actually not bad. I have it and still use it, exactly as it shipped. We call that v1 and only a handful of us received it. After some complaints about warped plates and caps they halted shipping and found a company who could "fix" the remaining run. They didn't and actually made them worse. We call that v1.5 since they were the original molds and not a new run. v2 is what is shipping today and is phenomenal. We received v2 for FREE at a huge loss to Rockwell. They could have very well shipped out v1 (or even v1.5) and called it a day. I believe every single backer received more than one razor for their pledge. 2. A blown ship date because they had to change the design and materials (while keeping tolerances tight and QC high) is hardly as big of an issue as you're making it out to be. Rockwell doesn't have a history of screwing customers nor can they foresee every single manufacturing problem. In fact, because they are so conscious of customer satisfaction they are allowing people to get refunds from a Kickstarter campaign. Go ahead and find me ONE other Kickstarter campaign that was successfully funded that allowed that. I'm pretty sure you won't. 3. They do NOT have a trail of broken promises. They have a history of over communicating and being honest and staying positive. Backers are always asking "WHEN ARE THESE GOING TO SHIP?!?!?!?" and they do their best to give an answer given what they know at the time. "It looks like we may be able to ship in [insert month here] if everything looks good when we ramp up production." All of a sudden a handful of people consider that a drop dead date while not understanding things like delays from a bunch of different people they are working with. Most of the delays have been outside of their control. If anything, Rockwell has a history of total customer satisfaction and delivering a great product. Believe it or not, delays happen. In fact they happen to large companies too.
I wonder for my self what was going through Gareth's mind when he started out trying to raise 75k and ended up raising, what, over 400? With that kind of coin, wouldn't you think that you could change a little bit of zinc to some brass? Too bad it didn't work. I bet the Model T is going to be a good razor anyway, just one I'm not willing to drop that amount of coin on. I will be the first one to admit that I was in early, and out early. But he paid up, and paid up within a few hours of my asking. At that point he was asking if I wanted everything back, or let him keep 10%. I told him to keep it. When you play these games, I feel there is a bit of skin in the game. I have no hard feelings, and I trust he will make it right with everyone, one way or another. This isn't hungry babies we are talking about, or malfunctioning brake calipers or something. It's a razor. The guy honestly tried to shoot the moon, and burnt up on re-entry. In the end, how many of us were really hanging on for dear life, needing this particular razor to meet a need in our lives? Answer: ZERO. We were playing along, hoping to have been in on the ground floor. We all bet red, and it spun up black. Total out of pocket? $8-10. I for one, applaud him for trying. It is after all, just a razor.
Read post #22 amigo. You jumped the gun here. But, let's let that go for a bit. Let's address and counter: 1. Multiple productions were done to correct issues and complaints from consumers, in which Rockwell themselves completely accepted it was their screw up. Took it on the chin and made good with the corrected product, as you say V2. Don't ever think they took a loss. They lost on profit margin as they had to correct their issues. No company will lose money on a product and stay viable. Remember, they are using $$$ that was already funded via KS for the whole project. Materials cost, design, prototyping, production & manufacturing, packaging and yes even profit margins were calculated before hand. Risk and Analysis, they did their homework. 2. Blown ship date. You count one? I have 3. True, it might not be as big an issue as I'm claiming. But still, it is an issue that has to be noted. I never stated that Rockwell screws their customers or backers. I stated run around and rhetoric that has not changed since the first of these series of issues commenced. Customers never asked for a drop dead date. Rockwell offered those dates. Again, who's fault is that? I'm not making up anything here guy. This is all fact, nothing more. Oh, on your last part of point 2. Heard of The Blades Grimm? Occams Razor KS campaign? They offered a refund on their complete redesign. There's your ONE. 3. Broken promises. Are you for real? No disrespect, but your reading something different than I am. RockWell offered up the dates and timelines. Why even bother making proclamations on delivery if your not on top of what's going on from A to Z? Haven't you followed up and seen the push backs on dates? Seriously, you get updates that prototypes are looking real good, pre-production runs look excellent. All of a sudden issues with tolerances. Dimensions or quality can't be kept. Ok, things that are out of their control. Is this going to happen again as in what happened with the 6s? Rockwell trusted someone else and paid the price for it. Looks like to me that they are potentially committing the same mistake again. Hope it doesn't, but it sure looks like it might. I'll end with this. You want to see how a KS campaign is run to sheer perfection? From nuts to bolts, this outfit did it right from the word go. Blackland Razors. Success on their first run of their razor and have been pretty successful ever since without having to resort to raising funds again via public supporters. Why? Because they used a methodical approach and nit-picked every detail of their project from start to finish to make sure it was perfect. They were in on everything, as it should be. Wouldn't you do the same?
True. We are not talking world hunger here. So you do have a point. To me big or small, it's about principle. But I do hope Rockwell makes it.
You win. I hope that someday the mental anguish you have suffered somehow becomes manageable and you can learn to move on with your life. Seriously, man. It's a razor. The money paid wasn't so much that you and your family won't eat. A LOT of kickstarters take in a lot of money and deliver nothing. Rockwell have ALWAYS delivered and they will most certainly deliver on this one, albeit later than they anticipated. I don't know if you ever read the terms at Kickstarter but you're investing in a product or company, not purchasing a guaranteed product with a guaranteed ship date. You have seriously blown this way out of proportion. It's almost as if you have competing interests because the amount of effort you have put forward to bash them as a company is seriously unwarranted for a product that looks awesome in it's current state, has had regular detailed updates, and WILL GET DELIVERED. Out of curiosity, were you even a backer?
Actually, ask @ShaneS about how his first Blackland KS bombed spectacularly. He got it right on round two.
Yes and no. Completely different reason. He screwed up on pricing and limiting razor options for KS goals. He messaged all his supporters and backers, told them his plan and pulled the plug on the first campaign. 1 month later he started up and was funded within a week. And he delivered on point. Here is the link to the full story... http://www.whyiwetshave.com/following-up-with-shane-swartzlander-of-blackland-razors/
I know the story well, and you are correct in your details. I just found it odd you used him as a flawless example, considering the ORIGINAL backers had to wait longer than expected to get the product originally promised. Even after Shane showed himself to be golden in his dealings, and delivered on countless numbers of Blackbirds, he had a crowd of people ready to string him up over delivery of his polished open combs; people accusing him of spin, of running off with his money, of being a thief, etc.... People from this very forum in fact, though they vocalized it elsewhere. I just find it hard to see any reason for getting excited about a razor when a guy can get his money back whenever he asks.
Really? That I did not know. I apologize for making the inference that he was squeeky clean. Besides, it's fairly easy getting Rockwell fans riled up. I confess that I should not have pressed the proverbial sensitive issue button with some. I should have kept some of my thoughts to myself. Especially @McHale, even though a couple of his lines were quite humorous.....
Really, I get why a guy gets upset. And I would say that Shane is, was, and always will be squeaky, but that as a community we get a little overzealous sometimes. In my opinion, over seriously trivial stuff: razors and soaps. Like spoiled kids sometimes, and please understand I include myself if that description. That said, Kickstarter is kind of a weird deal. We put money down, up front, hoping for a newer, better, greater thing that may or may not come to fruition. Thing is, any sane person would only do that with "fun money", because there are no guarantees. And it seems like for the most part, a guy is always backing new businesses, new ideas; both untested products AND their designers. It is a great concept, but a guy has to roll with the punches, so to speak. I don't find fault in you for expressing your opinions, or even disagree with them, mostly. Actually, it is good to vent them, and I think you did it tactfully, (not that my opinion counts for Jack,) it is just that somebody needs to be devil's advocate, or douse the proverbial fire. I just feel like, as a guy who has already been out of this one a while, my perspective is a little more distanced. And I will say the same thing I said to the guys ready to hang Shane over the polished Oc's. He is offering you your money back, or you can wait. Those are the only two options. He can talk about it all he wants, but the more time he spends talking, the less time he is spending finishing razors. You can't get blood from a turnip. I will duck out now, not because I think this got out of hand or anything, but I can't offer anything more. I wish all of you good luck, whichever way you go.
Kickstarter is a gamble in a new idea. It didn't work out. Updates were provided. A few people are acting like its Bernie Madoff for crying out loud. Too much Rockwell bashing. It appears from people who didn't fund the kickstarter anyway.
I can see every body have different opinion regarding Rockwell. I really wanted for this KS to deliver and it looks like it will deliver for most of backers but it didn't for me because of the materials chosen. None the less I got refunded and cant say anything bad about the company, I got the full refund maybe because Gareth forgot to take away the 10% but even if he did removed the 10% I wouldn't be angry regarding that. All in all im ok with it. What bugged me though is that the first runs of the Model T all in brass were good because they were touched up by either manual machine or CNC to get the proper results. You would think he funded over $400K and he should of given us option and said hey we can keep the razor in brass but we need little bit extra for the CNC touch up on some parts, but instead he went with 3 different metals and us who desired more were told that SS version will be considered if possible. Anyways one thing that I sort of noticed was after the Model T funding was done and money were collected it came another KS with the 6C zinc model. I think this is where I will bash Gareth, you have the 6S selling like hotcakes, got the Model T and 6C successfully funded on KS and he is making good money, when will the KS funding going to stop and actually invest your own money because he has them plenty now. I understand running KS for the get go but keep on running and running? people are not banks..... Did Blackland run KS for his GEM razor? no he didnt
Kickstarter is the BEST thing for Rockwell on new products. First (and most important) it tells them EXACTLY how many people are interested enough to purchase the product. Second, they get free advertising to many people who would not ordinarily find out about the product. Third, they get valuable feedback while they are making it which helps them improve the product. Large companies who have been around for decades are now turning to Kickstarter for those very reasons. A lot of people are assuming that the guys at Rockwell are rolling in cash because of the success of the 6s. While a lot of people in the shaving forums have purchased the 6s or 6c, that doesn't translate to massive sales outside of the shaving community. Tack on the fact that they have bills and staff to pay plus have to eat. I doubt they have the front money to get a massive project like the Model T off the ground without some seed money. Why potentially bankrupt the company when there's no reason to?
Then how do you explain other companies starting with KS by taking baby steps and then they grow up and do things on their own? Why would he be afraid of potentially bankrupting the company if they believe in their ability to deliver working product? So what you say lets not risk bankrupting the company and instead lets put the customers at risk? They are making enough money now to do it on their own and if they still cant that's why we have banks who give business loans. McHale you have your priorities mixed up big time.
What are all the Kickstarter projects that kicked off successful companies where they never went back to Kickstarter for future projects? My guess is you have zero manufacturing experience and have never run a small business. For every different razor they sell they have to have molds made which is a VERY expensive process. They have to sell a LOT of razors to break even on just the setup and manufacturing costs. Small runs require less molds and large runs require more molds to meet demand. It would be foolish to put out a ton of money on a lot of molds without knowing the demand. And if they just went with the minimal amount of molds SOME people would be freaking out that they missed a deadline!!!!!!111!! You know what the EASIEST way to gauge demand is? KICKSTARTER which is why most of the razor companies that are successful on Kickstarter go back to Kickstarter for future razor sales. It works for them and based on the number of backers they get, nobody else seems to care. Also, NON-razor launches do not go through Kickstarter, just new razor models. There are several razor companies that keep going back to Kickstarter. And come to think of it, MANY of the Kickstarter companies use Kickstarter several times for new products. Why is it so offensive to you that Rockwell does it? A few immediately come to mind: Supply - 2nd Kickstarter razor (for almost the exact same razor). The Blade Grim (a.k.a. Beard.com, GrimBlades.com, StraightRazors.com, Shave.Club, Beard.Club) - 2nd Kickstarter AND was a well established company before they went to Kickstarter Oristo - 2nd Kickstarter razor My priorities aren't mixed up. I just understand math and supply and demand.
McHale you can toss it and turn it as you want to but that's 3 companies that you mentioned that went back to KS, how many had only 1 KS or companies that never had any and they are still kicking, coming out with new razors and making money all on their own. Let me ask you this, if Rockwell still continues to go back to KS, lets say the KS flops and they don't deliver and naturally cant refund the money which it happened to a ton of KS projects, do you think that's fair for the customers? do you think those same customers would ever dare to join another KS project by Rockwell? Again this is typical example of company investing other people money with no risk at all, zero risk for the company. There are other ways you can gauge interest for product that do not involve taking customers money and play with their money for more than 1 year. If there was such gauge for interest made that dont involve the customers money being locked down then Rockwell would of been in a rocky spot when they said cant do all brass, here is the zamak/SS/brass version and live with it. I wonder if 90% of the KS asked for refund, the KS would of flopped and who ever got refund at the start good for them and the rest oh well.... I have nothing against Rockwell products and how can I when I enjoy their 6S razor, but this is my first and last KS ever no matter how reputable the company is. I rather let the faceless cheerleaders fund the KS, wait for the final product and wait for the reviews and if all is good I have no problem buying it then, but for the sake of saving 10-20 bucks on a razor that I have to wait more than a year and don't know if it will perform decent at the end, its just not worth it. Anyways I have 5 different Gillette Adjustables that are all brass and costed me around $25 each.
