Rockwell Owners Adjustable Razors Club (ROARC)

Discussion in 'Safety Razors' started by tuxxdk, Jun 8, 2016.

  1. Str8on2

    Str8on2 Active Member

    I completely understand. I am not a backer/supporter. But I did sign up for the all S/S version. And I do hope it comes to fruition without any long delays. Will Rockwell suffer any collateral damage from the change and about face on changing production materials? Most definitely, and brand loyalty with consumers will take a hit. If their products are a success, both versions, they'll recover and we won't think much about it. Price is another matter. But I don't think it will be incredibly higher. Perhaps a $50-$100 increase for an all S/S TTO adjustable. Barberos & Rocnel's S/S adjustable is practically $300. And ATT, Timeless and OneBlade are up there in the premium category as well. And there are some that will pay that premium. If the price for Rockwell's TTO were to be under or at $200, I'd consider that a bargain. Time will tell....
     
  2. blashe

    blashe Well-Known Member

    only time will tell the price increase, we should know by the next update. I actually straight up posted on KS and asked Gareth: What will you do if the MIM SS molds flop the same way as the brass molds? what then?
     
  3. Str8on2

    Str8on2 Active Member

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_injection_molding
    Here is some quick info on the Metal Injection Molding. Just click on the link. Even thought the metal has to be in powder form, it will actually work better for stainless steel than any other metal. The binding and sintering process is much more accurate for smaller pieces. Rockwell should have no difficulties in producing quality parts...
     
  4. sky pilot 83

    sky pilot 83 Member

    There's also videos on youtube of metal injection moulding companies explaining the step by step process and every aspect of MIM. very informative.

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  5. tuxxdk

    tuxxdk International Penguin of Mystery

    Call me thick (some do already), but wasn't the 100USD price at first for an all stainless steel version? I'm really confused now to what one'll get for that.
     
  6. sky pilot 83

    sky pilot 83 Member

    100 buckeroos for the kickstarter model will get you the zamak head model T. For a little more you'll get stainless. To find out how to get the stainless steel model T go to the Rockwell website and drop them an email on how to get the all stainless model t or if that's even an option. If not then head on over to IB, Maggard's, shave nation or your favorite shaving supply vendor and order a 6S. For a hundred dollars.

    The waters sure got muddied up on this one, eh boys?

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  7. tuxxdk

    tuxxdk International Penguin of Mystery

    So now it's a zamak. Understood.

    But at first, wasn't it supposed to be all stainless? I seem to remember that, but I may be off.

    I really haven't followed the T that closely since it was announced, so that might add to my confusion.
     
  8. sky pilot 83

    sky pilot 83 Member

    Here's the rundown.

    Originally the model T was to be all stainless externals with zinc internal mechanisms. People complained and it was changed to brass internals. Everything was fine at that point. Zinc is stronger than brass but brass doesn't break as easily. So it was all fine and dandy like cotton candy. Then it was announced the internals were going to be all stainless steel as well which made us very happy but at the same time it was announced that certain head pieces were going to be zamak because steel wasn't going to be workable for their tight tolerances. The complaints rolled in and people wanted refunds and then it was revealed the WHOLE HEAD was going to be zamak but, surprise surprise, they were going to offer an all stainless version (remember they said they couldn't get stainless to their tight tolerences?) for a little extra $. I'm guessing metal injection moulding came through again.

    So now you're all up to date on the case of the meticulous model T.

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  9. tuxxdk

    tuxxdk International Penguin of Mystery

    Much appreciated. In short, those who've backed in faith they'd get a stainless steel model (brass internals) have been sorely let down. This is very much not like I perceive Rockwell as a brand. I mean, they can't just change it along the way so people don't get what they ordered. Maybe I misunderstand the way Kickstarter works, but it's illogical to me.
     
  10. blashe

    blashe Well-Known Member

    No you got it wrong again so did skypilot, it was never SS model with brass internals ever planned.... so here I go and I'll try to explain and hopefully after you had your morning coffee and have woken up a bit your neurons will start kicking in:

    1. Originally started as All Brass and only the internal rod that moves the bay doors to be zinc internal.
    2. Once when KS reached huge numbers Gareth listened to its backers that wanted brass internals so that's what he did, he did changed it to brass internals AKA resulted in All brass Model T
    3. First prototypes of the Model T in all brass were made, maybe around 20 of them. They functioned great and the matte plating ( which I chose) looked phenomenal, so far great progress
    4. Production of the model T goes in full swing in BIG numbers and this is where all fall down. Pieces produces in big numbers resulted in deformation in sizes for the head parts and the razor didn't functioned as it should
    5. Gareth decides the KS goes on but he changed the head parts from brass to zinc, the handle, dial knob and cap under the bottom of the handle will be brass, internals AKA rod that moves the butterfly doors will be SS
    6. People that expressed that are not happy about the outcome said that they wont accept zinc parts
    7. Gareth realized if he has no other way out and has to give the 12% of KS backers a full brass razor, the 4 pieces that form the head of the razor would have to CNC machined, CNC machining brass would be very expensive
    8. Gareth realized that going MIM SS for the 4 piece head parts will keep cost down, he can also skip plating charges, keep the finish sand blasted like the 6s which is cheaper than trying to achieve high polish, also sand blasted is appealing
    9. Finally Model T SS was finalized and is a go for further proceedings
    - No other news so far, we are hoping to find out what will be the razor price increase with the all SS Model T, hopefully to find out by the end of Aprils update. Pretty much we don't know price increase, we don't have any functional prototype, we don't know how it will look - functions - or shave..... Not sure if this is for the better, considering seeing the first prototype in matte brass I was happy with that, SS is an upgrade but we know nothing of it so far. Although I have faith and if something goes wrong Gareth offers refunds, I have to hand him that he is honest men, but considering seeing how hard he is trying to make everybody happy I cant just back down and ask for refund. If the SS version flops at the end (hope it don't) then I'll ask for refund because I wont be accepting the zinc cunterparts one.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2017
  11. dbersh

    dbersh Well-Known Member

    Product launches are never easy. Rockwell learned that the hard way with the 6S.
    Add to it these are manufactured in China and that is a whole new world and frankly Garth doesn't have the knowledge or experience. He admitted as much with the 6S launch debacle.
    I worked for many years in materials management and sourcing current and new products both domestically and internationally.
    China product launches can be a nightmare especially if you don't have someone there throughout the whole process. Sure there are independent reps that can do this, but from my experience you need someone there from your company.
    Chinese manufacturing is progressing and can turn out quality products, but they are also notorious for saying yes they can do something when they can't.
    As I mentioned previously I don't have a horse in this race this time. I am sure Garth will do right with his backers, but I think he is in over his head again.
    They survived the 6S mess, but for his sake, he better not have same type thing occur again or he will likely be out of business this time.
    Personally if I had backed this, I would not be happy, however, remember crowd sourcing campaigns do not guarantee backers anything, it's the gamble one takes.
    To me, the issue here is he raised money for one product and after funding, changed the specifications of the product. What one backed is not what you are getting, unless you pay more now it appears. Not sure where that falls under the guidelines of Kickstarter.
    There could be legal ramifications all around on this if it goes bad.
     
  12. Str8on2

    Str8on2 Active Member

    We will just have to wait and see during the next product update scheduled for the end of this month. I have gone over countless pages on the internet and checking and re-checking the KS pages and just re-reading everything. And there are 2 facts that are undeniably true. What was promised could not be achieved because of production techniques and processes. Secondly, the material that was to be used could not hold the specific tolerances required to bring the assemblies to the expected standards of quality control.

    But, I also believe that there is more missing in this continuing saga of delayed production and delivery. If you read the updates from say December 2016 to the updates of March 2017, there were inherent problems with production and raw materials being used. But, all the updates prior to December 2016 were all positive. The pre-production runs and prototypes were perfect and without issues. Why the sudden change? How and why did everything that looked so promising do a complete 180? My theory is 2 fold. I believe his manufacturing partners could not deliver the product in a wide scale run because of tooling and manufacturing deficiencies. Also, I believe that the brass that was to be used was an inferior quality type, not suited for this specific small parts process. Just a theory, but if you read and do some research and some deductive logic, I'm not that far off in assuming that Rockwell tried to go a cheaper route, and it has not paid off. Just a thought is all. But it makes you wonder if they were trying to cut corners and "cheat" a little to regain profits lost from their first endeavor with the 6s. As we all know, they had to replace thousands of units that were defective from his first run.....

    Food for thought......
     
  13. dbersh

    dbersh Well-Known Member

    I agree with what you are saying. The 6S launch was a disaster, but they kept their word and did all that was possible to make it right for the backers, even above and beyond really.
    Your theory makes a lot of sense and time will tell on the outcome.
    Having lived this process on other items sourced in China, you are likely spot on with cost savings by both the supplier and Rockwell.
    Brass was proven to be a doable material for this this new razor and from what you say the prototype worked. And Gillette only made what a gazillion adjustables out of brass?
    I would hedge my bets that it is not a scalability of manufacturing requirements but a cost driven change.
    Again I hate speculating especially with Rockwells track record at correcting the 6S that was likely a huge financial lose, which were probably later offset by new 6S orders and then the cheaper 6C versions they are selling now.
    I don't think there was anything done knowingly to misrepresent the new product at all. I go back to their inexperience in the world of manufacturing and global sourcing.
    I really hope it all works out for everyone in the end, Garth has always been professional in my communications with him.
     
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  14. tuxxdk

    tuxxdk International Penguin of Mystery

    I need more coffee
     
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  15. sky pilot 83

    sky pilot 83 Member

    We all could

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