Honing School - Honemeisters & Newbies Unite!

they are some very informative videos

I’m not familiar with lapping film. But the higher grit w/d can be found at auto parts stores or if you have a auto body shop nearby they will definitely have those higher grits and might be willing to part with some. Wet the back side so it sticks down to your flat surface.

 

The smiling blades are the biggest challenge for me. I personally tape my spines to help prevent wear, but as I get more practice I’ve been finding less and less wear on the tape. Which I take as a sign that my skills are developing more. What I have learned was that by transferring where I apply the minute amount of pressure can make all the difference in how even the bevel is without wearing down the spine.

 

Thank you for this explanation, Glen. I value your input immensely, and that helped my understanding a lot. I hope you will hang around this thread to answer questions. We’d all benefit from your experience.

I’ll apologize ahead of time for my long response, but I want to give some background.

I only have two nice razors, both of which were professionally bevel set and honed (one by you), and honestly, would not be comfortable at all introducing hone wear to either of the (or any other nice razor for that matter). Besides, at this point I don’t have the skill set to do it properly even if I wanted to. Currently I’m very much in the camp that $30 is a very small price to pay to make sure it is done properly so that I can maintain the blade from there on out. I’m not sure if I’ll eventually want to do more than that, but who knows. Time will tell.

The reason I decided to buy some stones and start this project was not to correct geometry or bevel set nice razors. It was to get some comfort level with honing. So far, as a SR newb, I have been very hesitant to try and touch up either of my two good razors for fear of botching up the job. Bottom line, I don’t want to learn and practice honing my good razors. I’d prefer to learn on beater razors until I get comfortable with how the stones feel and I am able to just develop basic techniques. I set a goal that any razor I learn on will cost no more than $10 delivered. In short, they are throwaways; the razor equivalent of “scratch paper”.

Unfortunately, the $5 Gold Dollar Razor I got was so bad it would have caused injury had someone tried to shave with it. It had chips and folds in the blade that were easily visible with the naked eye and the spine was about as straight as a banana. Without grinding away on it, I had no chance to hone on it or learn anything from it. By grinding away on it, and making mistakes on it yesterday I learned a ton. I learned what different stones feel like, all the way from 200 (yeah, I know it’s not appropriate for honing but I wanted to understand how it felt) up to 16,000. I learned what using too much pressure feels like and what the effect is. I learned a bit of what it feels like to be “ready” to move up to the next stone, as the metal starts sliding more easily over the stone. I learned a little muscle memory of correct strokes and got to try and practice X- strokes and circular srokes (which I’d never tried). I even learned how much you wear down different stones at different pressures and how much they need to be re-flattened as a result. In fact, let’s be honest; I learned that it’s important to flatten your hones. Apparently that’s the honing equivalent to telling a race car driver that “you need to put gas in the car before it will go”. 48 hours ago, I didn’t know any of this. I’m starting from scratch here.

For the time being I’ll probably continue to learn resetting blade geometry and grind away on cheap throwaway razors. It’s not in deference to your advice or because because I don’t hear you or agree with you. (Frankly I don’t know enough to agree or disagree with anyone at this point). It’s because if the razor isn’t squared up, I have no chance learning how to hone it until my currently rudimentary skill set develops and improves.

Again, thanks for your explanation. I’m learning a lot from you guys!

 

You might think that what's shown above is excessive spine wear on a Gold Dollar, but it probably isn't - if it were a proper razor that wear would be massive. There are reasons to smooth or 'hone' a Gold Dollar spine. One, they appear to be what came out if the stamping mill. Unlike almost every other razor, the spines don't appear to be ground. So they can be 'lumpy', not straight, or several other cardinal sins of razor making may be present. Taking the spine down a little will usually show problems in the wear pattern and fix some of them. Take both sides down equally.

The second reason to work on the spine is that most of the Gold Dollar spines are too thick, and the bevel angle ends up 20-22 degrees or so (normal is something more like 16-18), with the cheaper models being worse in this respect. Absolutely never, ever, tape a Gold Dollar spine - lol. So you can have a large amount of visible wear on a Gold Dollar spine to get the bevel angle to a more normal level. Is it ugly? Yep. Is it abnormal or too much hone wear? Not if the bevel angle is in the normal range, remember you don't shave with the spine.

@BaylorGator you're using a Gold Dollar for what it should be used for, testing, getting the feel of your hones, seeing how long it takes to remove striae, perfecting your bevel setting tests and so on. Everyone I've encountered that wasn't hands-on mentored, including me, destroys one razor and puts too much wear on several others. No point grinding the steel off a nice vintage razor, even a user grade.

Cheers, Steve

 

Great points... But here's my dilemma: if the starting geometry on the razor is so bad, surely it's just a badly made razor? Should it even be honed?

At that stage maybe it's a project for a grinding wheel or to throw away.

Don't get me wrong, I'm really in awe of the Gold Dollar mod projects but I can't help thinking that they are another step higher than straight honing.

Genuinely interested in your views on this because I'm just finding my way.

Reading through these and other posts I have in mind the following progression in complexity

1) refresh with paste
2) refresh with finisher stone
3) set a bevel on a razor with an even starting bevel / good geometry and progress to finish
4) set a bevel with a problematic starting bevel / good geometry and progress to finish
5) repair a damaged edge etc.
6) set a bevel on a razor with problematic geometry
7) regrind / mod a badly made razor
8) grind a razor from a blank
9) make a razor from scratch

I guess for the moment I'd be happy to get to 4 or 5 and then rely on an expert for the rest.

 

Well, let me think about this a bit, there's a lot of things in this post. But as far as wonky Gold Dollars go, you can absolutely find many that are too bad to even fool with. That number shrinks if you have a belt sander, but that's not a normal honing tool.

I've bought them in moderate numbers for testing etc. 80% will be usable after 'planing' the spine and setting a bevel, though for some reason many or most seem to be overground on the show-side heel. 10% of them will be too bad to fool with - I have a drawer with many of these because I don't have a belt sander. 10% will actually be decent razors. And as often as the steel is criticized, the worst thing is the scales. These percentages may be off for any given batch, but they;re pretty reasonable.

Cheers, Steve

 

So by implication, the Gold Dollars would also be a good learning resource for understanding what is salvageable, and what isn't. Cool.

 

I might add that Gold Dollars are not badly made for the market for which they are intended - which is not us.

If you have a lot of time and not much money, you can appreciate the Gold Dollar better.

Cheers, Steve

 

Yes, it would take you a long time to learn how to manage and correct defects in Solingen razors simply because there aren't that many. You can find them all in one Gold Dollar!

Cheers, Steve

 

For perspective on Gold Dollars, a picture is worth a thousand words. Here are a few thousand words worth of information:

1. This is a picture of my wife's late grandfather's razor. I wish I had taken a "before picture" two days ago. You wouldn't have gotten $5 on ebay for it. It's well over 100 years old, there was pitting and rust everywhere with way more black showing on the blade than silver. Absolutely nothing was even close to shiny. I spent all day today sanding it down and working through several grades of wet dry automotive sandpaper. Then I started on the 1000 Norton and worked my way up to make it shave ready. This razor is the reason I bought the stones. Eventually I'll get into scales and figure out how to make and replace them.



2. This is the same razor under my usb microscope. Again, $5 ebay razor. Nothing special. Look at the metal and grain and edge. (Sorry about the lousy focus, but it gives you an idea of the grain of the metal and the bevel.)



3. Next is a Thiers Issard I bought used and not shave ready. You can see that the bevel isn't nearly as glassy as the one I just honed, but the metal grain is relatively similar.



4. Here is the Gold Dollar. Notice any difference in the metal grain? At several several points while honing it I looked at it under magnification and edge of the bevel that meets the face of the blade actually looked like it was "splintered" instead of creating a straight edge. Some guys say they can do magic with these things. I don't have that magic yet. Part of me wonders how much it's a "putting lipstick on a pig" situation. Again, for me, these are the razor honing equivalent for "scratch paper".

 

I Proper Bevel Set at the 1 K Bevel Stone Stage Should be Able to Shave..Under the Micro Lens from the 1 K Bevel Hone the Edge Should be Pretty Smooth..An Edge from a Naniwa 1 K Bevel Stone Should Not be Ragged in the Slightest..So an Edge that Looks Like that to Me has NOT had the Work Done on the 1 K Bevel Hone..

As Glen Said..Most of the Work is Done on the 1 K Bevel Hone..As Glen Also Said..Most Razors from Days Gone by..100 Years Ago or More..Most SRs were NEVER Properly Bevel Set..The Same Remains True Today..

Cant Really Comment on what I See Above..Except..Perhaps..The Hallmarks of a Heavy Hand..Maybe..Gold Dollar Steel Takes a Smooth Edge in My Experience as Straight Forward as Most Current Steel..That Said..There are Many Types & Hardness of Steel & it Does Require Getting to Know the Characteristics of Various Steels in Terms of Feeling on the Hones..

It Does Not Happen Overnight..

Billy..

 

So what is the best way to proceed? Based on your feedback, maybe I’ll go back and revisit the GD now that I’ve had some succcess, and try again?

Let me recap and then maybe you, Glen, or someone more leared than me can chime in with thoughts and/or next steps. My first attempt with the Gold Dollar taught me a lot by allowing me to get a feel for the stones, practice the lapping motion and a few stroke types. It also allowed me to screw up and try things without fear. The razor I got was extremely rough, and about as straight as a corkscrew, so I was advised to “correct the geometry” before proceeding. For my first attempt, the degree of difficulty without doing that was probably way too high for me, so with only $5 at risk I’m not too worried if it was the right move or not. I feel like the mistakes I made were $5 with of learning, regardless.

However, now @gssixgun has advised me that “resetting geometry” is not good practice. Since he’s an extremely highly revered honemeister, I value what he says extremely highly and am going to listen to what he says. (On top of that, I never have any intention of grinding away on a nice razor; that’s when you send it out to a hone-master.)

Fortunately, the next two razors I worked on were both relatively flat in their geometry. They were both Torreys. The one I got from @Drygulch was shave ready when I got it, but the edge had become pretty beat up from me learning to shave and strop with it. Although not necessary, I reset the bevel on the Norton 1000 for practice and then took it through the progression to see if I could do it. I was able to shave with it this morning. Did it feel as sharp as Glen’s edges? Nope, but it it was sharp enough to shave with, and was smoother and sharper than it was after I beat it up, so I’ll take it as a big victory.

The next Torrey (pictured above) was literally as dull as a butter knife, and I set it and took it through the progression. I got a good bevel and sharp edge on most of the blade and I’m sure it’s pretty shaveable. The geometry was a tad off, and I had trouble getting the last 1/4 inch or so near the heel and the toe to set down on the stone, but I tried my best at “blade gymnastics”, varying pressure and varying strokes with a moderate amount of success. Watching the water like Glen suggested really helped me see where the problem areas were, but I need some help with how to do this better if the razor has any play with it.

So what now? Do I reset the Torrey again for practice? Do I hope eBay razors come in with good geometry? If they don’t, do I grind away on cheap razors until I get better or just wing it with blade gymnastics? Maybe more hours of youtube videos? I need a bit of guidance here.

 

Randy,
I am not an expert yet, but can consistently get nice edges on my razors. I started out with Lynn and Glen’s videos as well and have spent a lot of time learning “honing gymnastics”. One thing I did was to ask the experts, including Kevin @HolyRollah , how to pick my razors. When buying razors, I look for minimal hone wear, no frowns, no straightened smiles, and no uneven bevels. This has helped me immensely. I’ve been learning to hone, rather than fix razors. I have several $10-15 razors that have turned into beautiful shavers.
I have sat in some forum rafters and not quite understood why people start out with damaged razors or cheap razors with bad geometry to “learn”. I did not want to start out behind the 8-ball. I will wait until I am much more comfortable with my skills before stepping into the realm of razor repair honing.
The most important thing for me is that I enjoy this process.
Have fun!

 

Thanks, Brian! I’m definitely enjoying the process. Mistakes and all. Looks like I need to figure out the secret sauce for picking good razors and doing minor blade gymnastics. Maybe I need to try and go find them in the Wild, like you do, as the bay is a bit of a crapshoot. Did you learn the “gymnastics” through videos and tips, or mostly through trial and error?

 

Talkin Honing Razors is a Bit Pedantic Outside of General Questions..Best Advice I Can Offer is Just Watch this Video Set Here on a Full Progression From Bevel Setting..Glen Offers Chrystal Clear Instructions..He Also Mentions Pressures & Stuff Rarely Mentioned in Honing Videos..Observe How Attentive He is with Every Stroke..

Billy..

 

I picked up on the blade gymnastics from mainly tip from asking about the problems I was experiencing with each razor, and from there it was trial and error. And after each attempt I tried to shave with it. One good that I had received was to use marker on the bevel to make sure that the entire bevel was making contact with the stone. If the marker does not come off of the bevel then your stroke needs to change some to get that part to make contact. It can be a excess of pressure issue, or an issue with the blade edge having a slight warp. But on each stroke take a look and see how the marker is wearing off.

 

Thanks. I've watched these videos before, but each time I go back having experienced a new problem it's like watching a whole brand new video.

By the way, I stand somewhat corrected on the Gold Dollar. "Somewhat" only because the geometry and grind of the one I got are still absolutely awful the blade isn't even close to symmetrical, the scales are still bowed, etc., etc., BUT, having now gotten a bit of the hang of things on the stones, I went back to the 1000 to 4000 to 8000, and the pics look a lot different this time. They also revealed a new issue:

Still the same crappy grind, but the bevel is set and the edge is coming along nicely:


Except over on this part of the blade that I was having trouble getting to contact the hone:


OK, maybe I'm slow, but NOW I understand what gymnastics mean and why people do all kinds of strokes in different shapes. It has nothing to do with the shape and everything to do with the function moving a low spot of the blade off the stone so the high part can make contact with the stone. Right? If so, a lot of things suddenly make sense to me now. It didn't until I had the above problem as illustrated by pics. I know Glen kind of said this, but it just came together for me.

Also, the tip Glen gave to watch the water on top of the stone where it's not riding up the blade was key to see this on the stone. This taught me to keep the stone very, very wet. Apparently my stones needed a lot more soaking, because even after an hour or so, they were soaking up water like a sponge and getting dry very quickly. It's easy to get "heavy handed" when there's not enough water lubricating the stone. (By the way if some of these observations are wrong, please point it out, as I'm kind of just discovering things out loud as I go in this thread.

Again, sorry to those of you who this stuff is rudimentary and kindergarten to, but it's all new to me, and these are relatively big revelations that I didn't really understand going into things, despite having watched hours and hours of youtube videos. I'm hoping if I document these revelations well, other aspiring honers down the line may have an easier time than me.

Again, the $5 "scrap paper" razor may be a horrible razor to start learning with, but it's still churning out a lot of lessons for $5.

 

Yes the norton 220/1000 stone is very porous and the water sinks through it pretty fast. Every 5-10 strokes you will need to put some more water on it. And it is very easy to be heavy handed.

 

Hints:

Diamond Plate vs Flattening Hone vs Sandpaper

Diamond Plates shed VERY few particles especially after the are worn in, but you should at the very least sharpen a couple of Kitchen Knives on a new plate before lapping a hone/stone to knock off any high diamonds to avoid deep scratches in the hone


Norton and Naniwa Lapping Hones along with Sandpaper shed particles as part of their function I HIGHLY recommend a thorough rinsing at the least or even a rub down with a 3M pad before honing to assure you don't catch an embedded grit particle
Nothing takes away a smile faster than a perfect edge with a Dinger from an errant particle embedded in your 8k Norton. (Ask me how I know )


Lapping vs Refreshing the surface

Lapping is the process of evening and flattening the surface of the Hone/Stone everything needs to start there

Some further refine the surface of the hone depending on what it is

In general the harder the surface the more refined you want the surface, waterstones actually work by constantly releasing grit so a Glass like sheen is not only not really necessary but might actually make the hone less efficient
That brings us to Refreshing the surface with a few Figure 8's before honing to start with a fresh cutting surface each time, it also releases Slurry which some find all new paths by working it

Oilstones work a little different, these you want a smooth burnished surface to get the most out of them..


There are some who use a mirrored surface on waterstones, Try it and see if that works for you

 

Wow, thank you.

When is your book coming out? You really need to write a book.