Honing School - Honemeisters & Newbies Unite!

Discussion in 'Straight Razors' started by BaylorGator, Jul 14, 2018.

?

I am a:

  1. Honemeister

  2. Not a honemeister, but I know my way around the stones

  3. Have enough skill to keep a previously honed edge sharp

  4. Total Honing Newb

  5. I don't hone, I'm just following for fun

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. gssixgun

    gssixgun At this point in time...

    Supporting Vendor
    I really enjoy going to the meets and teaching hands on across the table from people, been doing those since 2008

    I learn a ton by learning what they perceive from threads like this and the vids out there, what so many THINK they are relaying on Youtube etc: and what people actually perceive they meant, are often miles apart..

    Threads like this and the JaNorton on SRP can become huge repositories of info BUT nothing can compare to meeting face to face and passing Hones and Steel around the table..

    Simple SR honing concepts like "Why an X stroke works" actually argued about here on TSD takes 5 seconds to explain and show in person

    Torque vs Pressure is another that becomes so easy to explain and teach in person but takes pages of typing to explain

    "Riding the wave" or watching the ripple of water I can teach in literally less than 1 minute in person


    I love the Meets heheheh
     
  2. Paul76

    Paul76 Well-Known Member

    from just the videos and advice that I was given allowed me to get good shaves from comparing the advice to the videos to ensure I was on the same page. And I still seek advice when I run into problems from a new or different type of blade. And in person I’m sure would have been a lot faster. And also would still teach me a lot more.
     
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  3. Brickman301

    Brickman301 Well-Known Member

    Ok I’m not sure what category I’m in. I can keep a previously honed razor shave ready. I can set bevels and get razors good enough to shave with, but I wouldn’t say “I know my way around the stones”. I just started using natural stones to finish my razors. I use lapping film to set the bevels. Ive always had good luck with the films, so I just stuck with them. 12 mil lapping films is what I use to set bevels, it’s about 1,200 grit.
    I’ve been lucky with razors, I haven’t had to many that gave me major problems.
     
  4. mrchick

    mrchick Odd, Terrible Avatar

    I watched videos by Lynn and Glen and decided to use whet I saw there. Ive tried to ignore the unusual stuff on the web that appears to cause a lot of hone wear. I have been using a loop to monitor my progress. If I’m struggling with a razor, I set it aside and come back to it later. I’m trying to figure out asymmetrical kamisori and struggling a little, but I’ll figure it out.
    As far as razors, there are a lot of decent blades in the wild if you are patient, but I’ve picked up some winners in the web. Just have to have good pictures and more patience.
    Good luck!
     
  5. BaylorGator

    BaylorGator MISTER Fancypants

    Patience. Hmmm. That may be a lot harder for me to learn than honing. :)
     
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  6. RezDog

    RezDog Well-Known Member

    I dislike the term honemeister. I hone, and have done a fair bit. I also teach a little. I like to teach by mail. I also like meets. I have learned a great deal at meets, from the basics to advance honing discussions. I am a firm believer that as a beginner you should tape the spine. As you learn to torque the edge and put the emphasis on the edge and not the spine, you will notice that you get very little wear on the tape. When you can consistently hone without significant wear on the tape, the tape becomes optional, otherwise you are ruining perfect good razors but wearing the spine faster than the edge, and messing up the geometry. As a student of Glens, I am a firm be
    I ever in the bevel set and that the magic happens on the lower grits. I rarely used diamond hones and do so as part of restoration and not honing. They have their place in my workshop. They are also perfect for cleaning and lapping hones. There is a ton of misinformation on the web. In fact it’s hard to find good information at times. It seems you do not need to be well informed or even correct to have a YouTube following. I have seen some hideous things that people refer to as honing a straight razor.
    Tape
    Loupe
    Flat, quality hones
    Patience
    Good razors
    Good instruction
    That is what you need to learn to hone.
    It is not rocket science, but it does take some time and effort to learn to be good at it.
     
  7. DaltonGang

    DaltonGang Ol' Itchy Whiskers


    :happy096:
     
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  8. mrchick

    mrchick Odd, Terrible Avatar

     
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  9. BaylorGator

    BaylorGator MISTER Fancypants

    Thanks, that was really well said. The more I work on this mess of a Gold Dollar, the more I am learning, and the more I am understanding this concept. I am getting a good edge in some areas and not in others, and although the problem is caused by bad geometry, learning to adjust to compensate for that is teaching me a ton about honing already. I have no regrets having ground away on a cheap, sacrificial razor in order to learn, as grinding down the spine on the first one really has served a similar function as “training wheels”. It lowered the degree of difficulty allowing me to get a feel for things. Honestly, if a razor that I actually planned on using regularly showed up as out of whack as this one did, I probably wouldn’t hone it or grind the spine. Instead, I’d probably choose to pass on it and move on.

    Thanks for the continued input. I really appreciate TSD providing the forum and the opportunity to learn from you more experienced guys. This would be a mess if I was simply left to my own devices.
     
  10. BaylorGator

    BaylorGator MISTER Fancypants

    Sorry if I'm posting excessively on this thread a the moment. A lot of times just putting my thoughts and questions into words helps me process, and having people comment helps with that process. I day or so ago, I asked "so what next?" I think that question answered itself. Today I re-tested my original PIF razor and realized it really wasn't as sharp as I'd like in order to call it "shave ready". Does it shave? Yeah. Does it shave as well as the professionally honed Dovo that I've touched up. No, not enough that I'm happy with it. I think I'm gonna go back to that one as well as continue to learn on the GD, as I've got a ways to go. I'm probably 45 shaves into straight shaving so I'm still a novice there. I'm convinced that the only way to get better at it is practice, practice, practice. You know "time takes time". I'm starting to also come to terms with this is going to be the journey of honing as well. At least, as much of a novice as I am at this point, I've overcome the fear that my technique is so poor I'll mess up a good razor trying to touch it up on the Naniwa 12K. Will I do a good job touching it up? Who knows, but at least I won't screw it up, and I know what to look for under the microscope to find problems, and I know what to look for on the hone to try and correct them. If I'm unsuccessful, @gssixgun will be getting it in the mail, and I'll start the process again until I get it right. After 10 days, I think that's a hell of a journey so far.

    I'm going to be stepping away for the hones for a week or two, as the busy schedule of the next two weeks won't allow me to focus on it at all. I'm hoping in the meantime, other folks will jump on the bandwagon, ask and answer questions and turn this thread into a lasting and useful resource for all. If not, we can't say we didn't try. Regardless, I'll be back with more annoying questions in a bit...:)
     
  11. BearCWY

    BearCWY Well-Known Member

    I appreciate you posting your journey of learning to hone. I am also fixing to follow in this endeavor as I have just bought some Naniwa stones, a DMT diamond plate, a stone holder and Lynn Abrams modular paddle strop kit. All ordered from Lynn Abrams Straight Razors Designs, current prices for what I ordered below. Still waiting on it to arrive as of writing this post. I'm excited and nervous all at the same time about starting down this proverbial Rabbit Hole, but like Alice it should be a fun trip. I'm sure I will be having the same issues that everyone has just getting started. I've even learned it would be a good idea to pick up a few additional Naniwa stones after watching Glens video's on Naniwa honing. I'm watching all the videos I can by Glen and Lynn on the subject as well as Keith Johnson in preparation to get started.

    Currently ordered honing supplies:
    Naniwa stones: 1000, 5000, 8000, 12,000
    DMT Diamond plate
    Naniwa stone holder
    $296.99
    and Lynn Abrams modular paddle strop kit with extra hard wool felt pad and chromium oxide spray.
    $122.46
    Was out of the spare premium leather strop as of the time I ordered.

    Will be ordering the 3000, and 10,000, after watching Glens videos on Naniwa honing.
    $118
    Maybe a 2000 and a Shapton diamond glass lapping plate. :signs002:
    Wish me luck as I take this journey with you into the wonderland of honing Straight Razors.:scared003: :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
  12. Linuxguile

    Linuxguile dating an unusual aristocrat

    I really don't think you will need the 3k and the 10. After the bevel set it literally takes less then 5 minutes work on each progressive stone. A 600 grit DMT or Atoma plate will work just fine for flattening and cleaning your stones and will cost a lot less then the Shapton lapping plate.
     
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  13. Linuxguile

    Linuxguile dating an unusual aristocrat

    I see you already got a DMT. Save your money for a little down the road when you want to start looking at natural finishers.
     
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  14. BearCWY

    BearCWY Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the advice, I still think I want to get the 3000 and 10,000 stones so I can follow Glens video. I think it's going to be a while before I'm ready for natural finishers, I need to get the basics down first.
     
  15. CastleShave

    CastleShave Well-Known Member

    I apologize in advance for my silence over the last week. I have been doing several restoration projects that have been keeping me very busy along with my real job aswell. I wanted to share my resto experience with you guys just for the knowledge. I’d love if glen can chime in aswell as I don’t have nearly the experience he does. Any how this week I restored 2 razors in particular a 13/16 Brooke’s and Crookes and another 13/16 Solingen Kings Crown Razor. The Brooke’s came out fantastic barely anything to do but a bit of spit shine.
    Before[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    As you can tell there was bad geometry from poor honing in the past. Nothing big though even if it might seem as that. Any way after a little bit of elbow grease, I had no choice but to hone down the spine to ensure a perfect apex. These are the photos after.[​IMG][​IMG]
    The other one... hahaha now this one I thought was truthfully going to be the easier one because there was no chips. Ya balls this one was a headache from hell because the geometry was absolutely terrible and there was a bend in the cutting edge. Honestly I should have thrown it in the garbage but I went in head first for the challenge! Here are some before shots[​IMG][​IMG]
    So grabbing the bull by it’s horns, I hand sanded the living life out of the rusted areas and went light on the face... because you know that’s precious in vintage blades. Once I finished all the esthetic stuff I put her on my 1 k stone. Checked it under the loupe and she should have been popping hairs easily. This was not the case. As I was watching the swarf run along the blade I noticed just a very minimal amount of water was being left behind. No problem I said, so I started honing her as if she had a smile. 1hr of rolling and rolling circle strokes. Kept checking it and it would cut. I’m starting to get angry at this point. [​IMG][​IMG] so I’m looking at the bevel line and it is all wonky. I don’t like wonky bevel lines I despise them. Razors to me are pretty and prestige and I like to keep them that way. Did some more tests and learned that the cutting edge had a minor bend. So I ripped off the tape and went to town on the spine! I learned that sometimes you just can’t avoid working it. Mind you this is a rare scenario even for myself considering I’m approaching about 100 razors(personally) most of them being wade and butchers. Any how, after quite a bit honing the spine and checking the strokes she was finally catching the edge I needed to make her shave. It wasn’t good enough the edge was now catching in the right areas but it was terribly ugly. I had to Re sand out the bevel and all the hone wear on the spine. Once that was complete I retaped the spine and started from scratch again to get this.[​IMG][​IMG]
    The entire point of this long ass story is number one to experiment and never give up. You will always achieve a goal if you are 100% persistent at it. That can be applied to anything in life. The razor is still not perfect in my opinion but she is now an excellent shaver that I will hopefully sell to a novice user that wants to get into wetshaving. Really hope my expierence and methods can help you guys in some future project!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  16. BaylorGator

    BaylorGator MISTER Fancypants

    I’m happy with my setup, but if I had to do it over, I’d probably save myself a bunch of time and research and just order everything from SRD like you did. I’d probably go with a setup similar if not the same as yours too. You’re going to love that paddle strop!
     
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  17. gssixgun

    gssixgun At this point in time...

    Supporting Vendor
    Honing over time:

    I wrote this some years ago


    "After the first complete Bevel to Finish honing experience that a new honer accomplishes there is a huge sense of pride, they tend to share all the mistakes they made with the forum members, which often helps others make the same ones.

    Sometime later at about 10 razors honed and that shave, the new honer begins to share what they think are the tricks that all new guys need to know, this is often posted as "Info to New Honers by a New Honer" because the info that experienced honers is often confusing to New honers..

    At about 50 razors hone the New Honer has now realized what they thought was a good edge, really wasn't all that good, and they go back and re-hone most of their razors, also spreading their growing "Wisdom" with new honers.

    At around 100 razors we now have the birth of the "New Expert" they are more than happy to spread their newfound "Wisdom" far and wide often making multiple Youtube vids to be accepted as a "Qualified expert"

    Somewhere around 500 razors, if they make it that far they realize most all the "Expert Wisdom" they spread in the past was pretty much all wrong and they start making new Youtube vids and deleting the old ones. They also start sounding like the guys that had been telling them that what they thought was true wasn't, wishing that the forums allowed them to delete all the erroneous info they had spread.

    At about 1000 razors honed they enter that rarefied state where they realize that most of what they thought they knew to be true wasn't and that now they know enough to actually learn"


    This is much the same as reaching a Black Belt in a martial art, many people tend to think that a Black Belt means you are now an expert, when it actually means you finally know everything required to begin to actually learn..


    This is by no means directed at anyone here , it was something I noted and wrote years back on SRP...
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
  18. CastleShave

    CastleShave Well-Known Member

    Love this! So true, every time I hone I learn something new. I always try to choose a more difficult projects each time. The project the other guys won’t take... well it will eventually stop when I find a razor that the temper has been shattered but won’t know until I get there.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  19. gssixgun

    gssixgun At this point in time...

    Supporting Vendor

    Save your money The DGLP is a huge waste for what we do, the only reason I bought it was I owned the whole Shapton set and my OCD said BUY IT !!!!

    I would get the 1200 DMT for smoothing or the 600 either works well

    The 3k and 10k Naniwa ??? This is something Lynn and I disagree on

    I feel the hardest thing for a new honer to get is the bevel set, so IMHO the 3k is more useful than the 5k, they both do the job however, and do it very well. You do not need the 10k but heck it ain't that expensive either and it does make for a smooth step ladder with smaller steps
     
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  20. gssixgun

    gssixgun At this point in time...

    Supporting Vendor
    Hints:

    I have posted this in the past but it might be worth reading again


    Hitting the Stone Wall and Climbing over

    1. Learn to walk away, if a razor has you stumped, learn to walk away, set that razor aside, and move to the next one, or get up and go do something else.. Sitting there Grinding on a razor normally achieves nothing good.. I have read posts where people are putting in more then 1 hour on one hone, that is just too long...

    2. Change something up (the ideas below are in no particular order)

    2a. Change Hones, Go up a grit, go down a grit
    2b. Add slurry or subtract slurry
    2c. Add a layer of tape or Subtract a layer of tape
    2d. Change your stroke patten, try circles, try X's , try Japanese, try Angled honing, get radical [​IMG]
    2e. Try stropping the razor
    2f. Try the Magic Marker test
    2g. Try killing the edge (Drastic) but it can work for many Chippy razors.
    2h. Try using a different brand/type of hone altogether (if you have them)

    3. Magnification is your friend, well lit Magnification is your BFF [​IMG]

    4. Jumping ahead, puts you behind, basically this really relates to the bevel set, if you say to yourself "Screw it, the edge is almost there, I will catch it on the next stone" you just added work for yourself and you are simply polishing the bevels.. Until that bevel is set from Heel to Toe and set correctly and evenly, jumping ahead is a waste of time...

    5. Going below a 1k (approximately) stone for anything besides serious edge restoration (Pre-honing) doesn't really save you time it simply cuts deeper into the bevel and that has to come back out, or you will have a weak/harsh edge in the end.. This is something you either have to trust me on, or you have to do the tests yourself.. Honest, if there was a "Faster" way to set a bevel I would be using it [​IMG]

    6. Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast, What does that mean ??? Well it means that doing it slow means that you will get a smooth consistent stroke, by getting a smooth consistent stroke you will hone better and faster [​IMG]
    If you try and rush the process, one small mistake sets you farther back, one single mis-stroke or miscue on the hone can erase all your work [​IMG]


     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
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