razor won't get sharp

Lee,

I don't know how much some of the 12k stones cost, but different option might be a diamond pasted or chromium oxide pasted paddle strop. I've gotten good edges off diamond paste and others have gotten good edges off the chromium oxide.

Good job and the bevel reestablishing. That helped me so much with the particular razor I started this thread about.

 

My jokes don't get any better. :ashamed001

 

Well, as I said: Give it a try (if you want to). Medium pressure, no more than 10 laps and then 100 on the plain leather strop. Oh, and make sure the surface of the chromium oxide strop is very smooth. The problem with chromium oxide is, that most guys do far too many laps on it making the edge fragile and dulling the blade.

@James: Wow, that sounds great, the Asagi hones are absolutely gorgeus and quite fast cutting if I remember correctly.

 

As has been said before: Either look into a Chinese 12k from Woodcraft.com or get yourself a strop pasted with Chromium oxide - my personal preference. 10 laps after the 8k should get you there.

 

In my experience Chromium Oxide has not provided me with a good edge. I go from the 8k to the 12k to .5 diamond paste stop and then to leather strop. Nothing more is required if done properly.

Honing is not a secret magic spell that only Merlin can perform or a few selected individuals as some would like for you to believe. Keep it simple and use what is available to you and I can assure you will learn and get excellent edges every time.

Woodcraft has the Chinese 12k for $30. If you fell the need to spend serious $ on Belgian, Austrian, blue, yellow, whatever, do it. But you can get the same results spending a lot less $$$$$$.


Raf

 

you probably dont have a good bevel set on this razor, the same thing happened to me and when i corrected the bevel it got very sharp

 

As another side note, using a pasted strop will, over time, create a convex edge due to the natural give in the leather (whether hanging or paddle). This means that extra work will be needed on the hone when setting subsequent bevels. And if the bevel is not set properly, you're fighting an uphill battle to get the razor sharp.

So if you do use pasted strops for touch ups, or finishing, you do need to be careful that when resetting the bevel you spend enough time on it.

James.

 

Jimbo, the worst you have to fear from pasting too much is a rounded edge. CrOX or other fine pastes (might be a different thing with the coarse 2-5 micron diamond-paste, though) don't have the strength to remove that much material. The concave ("frown") blades are developed by using X-patterns on the coarser hones as the middle part of the razor gets honed double as much as the ends. This has been confirmed in experiments from several guys. Always use a 90degree-angle to the hone and hone the razor sequentially with only 2 or 3 X-strokes at the end.

 

Now that's important information to know. Thank you for posting this.

How,though, do you not use X-strokes if you have a narrow hone (less than the width of the blade)?

 

You're very welcome, Steve Always glad to be of help.

 

Klaus - yes, what you are saying is correct and I didn't explain myself very clearly. Sorry.

What I meant is the convexity when you look at the edge front-on, not side-on. Side-on, the length of the edge should be either straight or smiling (edge down, spine up). And you are quite correct - I seriously doubt you could remove enough metal with pastes to drastically change the geometry of the edge into a smile or frown.

What I'm referring to is the cross-sectional view of the edge, or the side-on view. Off a hone, this view will look like (to a rough approximation) an isosceles triangle:



Because a strop has give in it, no matter how taut, the two sides labeled "b" will become rounded from pasted strop use, creating a convex edge. When it comes time to hit the hones again you have a bit more work in front of you than if the sides had remained straight.

Anyway, sorry for not explaining myself clearly before.

James.

 

I received .5 micron paste this week and using it to finish. I will get a 12000 stone as well. Hell, since I gave up golf after becoming a scratch golfer I am still saving money here !

 

You need to write a book !

 

Exactly what I meant, James - nicely explained! What you also have to take into account is that the edge will get rounded too, so all three edges of the triangle get rounded forming a round edge in the end which will, as you explained, take much longer to hone. This is the exact reason why I don't use the pasted strop for refreshing the edge but go directly back to the hones (starting at 4000 grit when refreshing).

Oh, and I did make a mistake in my previous post: honing in X-pattern doesn't result in a convex, but a concave ("frown") blade. Sorry for the mix-up of the two terms...

 

Thanks :ashamed001

I just happen to know quite a few guys who do a lot of thinking regarding straight razors and honing, who have analyzed steel and hones and know some of the last straight razor manufacturers (grinders) on this earth. I just pick up some information here and there, sometimes accompanied by my own experience and thinking :laugh042

 

There you go:



Black is the original edge. Yellow/orange (whatever it is, my laptop isn't calibrated ) shows how the edge will wear after repeated use of the pasted strops (we're talking 200-300 laps here not the usual 10-20 after honing!) and blue shows the new bevel that will have to be set on a coarse hone to remove the roundness and also shows the amount of material that will have to be removed to get a straight edge again.

 

If you answered this part of Steve's question, I missed it or don't understand. How DO you hone a 2 7/8" edge on a 2" wide stone without an X pattern?

 

OK, so...

1. Does this rounding happen when using chromium oxide paste or just diamond paste?

2. Why does paste cause the rounding? Is it strictly a matter of the flex of the leather or does it have something to do with the shape of the abrasive grit?

3. Do I understand that it would take a lot for this to happen? I mean, it would take several months of refreshing an edge on the paste not just once or twice?

 

There's really nothing for it on a narrow hone but to X pattern, although you could try angling the blade on the hone a bit - works for me. I always use an X pattern, usually with the heel leading so that the razor is about 45 degrees to the hone. Generally, because a narrow hone is, well, narrow, the problem of creating a frowning edge is less of a worry.

Then there's the "rolling" hone motion, which from a certain point of view is deliberately targeting the vertical pressure applied to a small part of the edge while X-ing so that a smiling edge is created - I mainly use a rolling hone motion because I do like smiling blades. Plus it's the only way I (and others) have found to get an edge on some razors, particularly warped blades or the older types where the spine width tapers at the tip and again at the shank end.

But the general idea I think is to be aware of what is happening between the edge and the hone, and to also be aware that you can adjust how your stroke proceeds to counteract any issues that may develop. If you notice that the tip of the razor is not as sharp as the rest, add a bit of pressure to the tip as it hits the hone (usually this can be achieved by raising the heel slightly). If the heel is not as sharp as the rest, you can raise the tip slightly at the start of each stroke, thus adding pressure to the appropriate spot. If you develop a smooth X action that includes slightly raising the tip at the beginning of the stroke, ends with a slightly raised heel at the end of the stroke, and has a smooth transition between these two extremes during the stroke, you're basically doing a rolling X pattern.

Steve - the rounding will eventually happen with any abrasive because of the flex in the leather and how it moulds itself around the edge as the edge passes over the strop. In extreme cases, where too much pressure is used, it will wipe the edge off, which is why people tell you to keep a hanging strop as taut as possible, and to use as light a touch as possible, when using paste on them. But the same is true for paddle strops too.

How quickly it occurs depends on the frequency of use and the grit of the paste. And it's not necessarily a problem either - knife sharpeners I think will sometimes deliberately put a convex edge on a knife to make it more robust. There are even some people who are putting a double, or triple, bevel on razors (by using increasing layers of tape on the spine) in an attempt to both decrease honing time and increase edge durability. If you think about it, this is just a straight-line approximation to the curvature created by the pasted strop (kind of like how, say, an octagon could be viewed as a straight-line approximation to a circle). The only real issue that I can see is when the edge finally degrades so much that a bevel reset is needed, you'll need to take a bit more time on the hone than might otherwise have been the case. And if you are not aware of it, you may not set the bevel properly and then have issues getting a shaving edge. But that's just conjecture on my part.

But these are just my opinions, based on what I tend to do or have read about. YMMV!

James.

 

well, there's really not much to add to that wonderful post of yours, James!

Just one thing: You can avoid X-ing on a narrow hone by honing sequentially.
Step 1: Rest the part starting with the tip on the hone and do a complete pass on both sides.
Step 2: Lift the razor and put it leading with the spine (the other end of the blade) on the hone and do a complete pass
Step 3: start over again
Step 4: Do 3-4 X-passes to smoothen out any steps that might have formed during this process.

This way the middle part of the blade will also be honed more than the tip and the rear end, but the difference lies in the right-angled motion that allows for an even hone-wear.